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Originally posted by Valen:
15 minute match = *way* too much stress

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unless you have 8 battery packs your going to be skipping 2 rounds out of 3
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Mechanical engineers build weapons, civil engineers build targets

Is eigth sets of batteries a guess or based on maths? For an eight way roundrobin, which is the most bots we can fit into the time, there are 7 rounds with four matches in each round. We can schedule each bot so they fight at fairly regular intervals and with 15 minute spacing the absolute worst is a single 30 minute break with the average being 45 minutes. That is about what we already have near the end of the day with double elimination so we should all be able to cope.


With the batch system there will still be pauses between matches and I can't see it taking less than 5 minutes to vote, clean out the previous match, get the new bots in and powered up, clean major debris etc. Lets assume we are super efficient and do it in two minutes, which means there is a match starting every 5 minutes. Each round will still have four matches (I'm comparing the same 8 bot scenario) and the batch will take 18 minutes from start to finish - pretty damn intense!

We then have a 30 minute R&R break, rinse and repeat. That means from the start of one batch to the next is 48 minutes, assuming super efficiency and no forfiets. I put that into a spreadsheet and we could fit in an amazing 10 rounds in a day . That doesn't include a lunch break so let's say just 9 rounds. The trouble with this is that given our slackness it just isn't possible to reliably keep to a two minute break and if you want to watch all the matches (and who doesn't?) then you get the same or less time for R&R on average than with the constant 15 minute schedule. If we work the mining out with a more realistic 5 minute break between matches, then a batch takes 27 minutes and we can fit 8 rounds in a day with a 30 minute lunch break. More realistically, you would do 7 rounds and have a longer break, plus use the spare time to take up delays.

When you compare a steady 15 minute schedule with a batch system, they are remarkably similar except that the 15 minute schedule has a more relaxed changover period during which we can vote, clean the arena and get the next bots loaded in. With the batch schedule the recharge & repair time is still no better and usually worse, plus Sarge will be yelling at us until he bursts an artery.

If anyone wants to check the spreadsheet with the comparisons, just ask and I will email it.

Please don't think I am being an arena Nazi, I just want to find the best way to pack more matches into an event with the least complication and stress. What everyone has to realise is that to have more matches, we HAVE to have less time between them. We can average it out or we can batch it up, but there will always be less time. If we can't get organised enough for that, we just have to accept that perhaps the current system is better for us.

What say you?
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Australian 2015 Featherweight champion
UK 2016 Gladiator champion

If you want to run a tight schedule, It simply comes down to the professionalism of your compeitors.

After someones bot has been removed from the arena after a fight, that person should *not* be leaving their pit table until their bot is ready to just turn on and fight again.

No wandering around talking to people, watching other matches, taking photos of the damaged opponent, going for a bite to eat or *anything* else. The batteries should go straight on charge, and the robot should be tested and ready to go. If your bot is not ready for its next fight before you get distracted, you are risking a forfeit or an event holdup.

I realise that sounds harsh and takes away some of the socialising and fun of chatting to other competitors, but thats why I call it "professionalism".

Amateurs are there for the fun and to mess around with the occasional fight when (if) they can get their shit together. Professionals are there to fight on time, every time..

After running a few events, you get an idea of who can be counted on to go when they are asked, and who is always still reassembling or repairing their bot 2 minutes after they have been called to the arena.

I understand unexpected things can happen on occasion - it happened to me at RoboWars II - I thought I had I.G. all ready to fight again, but a motor that *was* working when I tested it had cooled down and the melted internal plastic fan had then solidified inside and jammed it. It worked when still warm when I tested it..

I only discovered it when demonstrating the drive-adapters to Glen (thanks Glen) and found one wheel couldnt move. Which then took me over an hour to fix.. Had that happened in the arena, I would have lost or forfeited. Mel lost a match with Scoopy because she didnt discover a dead drive motor until she was in the arena.

Anyway, enough ranting. Rearranging the competition structure wont change the entrants habits.. You need to either get tough on the forfeits, or kick some butt of the late runners.
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Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

My contention is that people take time to "get ready" if everybody does it at the same time then there should be less chance that they will be delayed in doing so.
The other big thing is the inherent "10 minute warning" in the system, everybody knows that all the fights are going in. There's less call for "Sarge" because you only really have one organizational event per round ;->


Personally I like the excitement of the "big wing" with battle after battle.
Then there's a period in which there's no distractions (if you don't offer the distraction people wont take it) its a social engineering thing. I also think it'd be good for events like sidetracked where there is other entertainment available and you don't have to try to keep the audience sitting there for 15 minutes between fights. If I were the proprietor I'd like it as when the people are sitting there between fights they aren't putting money in the arcade machines when they could well be ;->

To me it comes down to this, i want to see every fight, We try to get our bot ready before the next fight, (excluding time needed for motors and batteries to cool). Its irritating to be getting the bot ready and missing fights then to sit around waiting for 20 minutes when nothings happening.
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Mechanical engineers build weapons, civil engineers build targets

Well, the idea of having an enforced "go get ready" period prior to the start of the next round might help.

Suggesting that everyone in a round be ready at the *start* of that round time would be nice, but I'll be surprised if its achievable.

Between round gaps are fine by me at Sidetracked where there is alternative entertainment. Give it a go though and see if it helps.. There has to be some way to get these events ticking along on time..
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Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

As I may have previously indicated. I don't think we are really in a position to do a full round robing style event in a single day.

Some alternatives would be to have pools (similar to the World Cup) or to have the entire season a round robin (like AFL or NRL) but have multiple rounds per event. With the last option you could have as many fights as you want say 4 rounds. The drawback is that people would have to attend every time and also register at the start of the year. The benefit is that over the course of the year you get a distinct winner.

I personally like the idea of pools. Its more random than set. I like the notion of not being drawn against particular bots. With such a small number of bots you divide it into two. Then everybody fights everyone in the pool until say two robots are clearly winners in each pool. The two 1st placed robots in their pool fight. The winner goes to the grand final, the loser fights the winner of the two 2nd placed robots from the pool. Then you have the grand final. That way you get a clear 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

Any uneven numbers, then one pool gets a bye. With 6-7 bots some people only get 2 fights in the official comp, unless you do more rounds or battle off for the lower placings.

One simple way of having more fights in the day is to have a greater spread of the season points and to actually determine those placings. That way if you lose your first two matches you cant get 1st-4th anymore but you might get something else.

Anyway just a thought.

the problem with win/loss accounting only is that its far too easy to get ties.
Thats why i'm pushing the points system.
The bot with the highest points is the best bot. You can work it on the day and over the season. Theres no need for a fixed number of fights. You could have 2 rounds at an event and still come out with a winner, it probbly wouldnt be too accurate an estimation at that stage but it should be indicitave.

I'd like to go win/loss but theres all the "fringe cases" that stop it from working. If your in a round where the other person taps out after driving 1 meter should that count the same as going 3 minutes against jolt?
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Mechanical engineers build weapons, civil engineers build targets

all these ideas have their merits ,and trust me ill go eitherway ,but i cant see us even getting close to any of them until the turn around time between battles is adressed .
i like the statement brett made about being proffesional in your approach to a battle day . call it proffesional if you like ,to me its common courtesy.
and yes dont leave your robot till its locked and loaded for the next round .
and as ive said before ,if you had your bum whipped and your robot is buggered ,do the right thing and forfiet ,then people doing the draws etc know whats happening and can move on .
i recall at our 2nd round ,it took us till 11-30 am to have our first round due to late commers ,uncharged batteries ,still grinding etc etc .but amazingly we managed to get through all the battles and the mellee by 4-30pm why????
because everyone got stuck in and was proffesional about it .to me that was the best days battling ive seen us have .
its about preparation before the event at home the hours ,days and weeks before battling .
if you just want to do robots on the day of an event and no more then stay home and dont waste everyones time
once these issues are adressed and we can run a one on one day smoothly i cant see us battling as often as we would using other criteria.
i would love the pool system and the RR system but think of what we do now and fix it first .end of rant

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The round robin served us well at Klkivan on the weekend. We got in more matches than usual and everyone got to play all day.

We just said two points for a win one for a tie and none for a loss. This format reduces the impact of one bad judges decision.
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So even the rain that falls isn't actually going to fill our dams and our river systems

The Round Robin system worked great for us on the weekend, like Philip said. Each robot had 4 battles, and a bye. The system was really flexable and allowed some competitors that just need those extra few mins to get patched up to be slotted into a later time without affecting the over all schedule.

I personally think we should continue using the RR system up here in QLD. More Fights, More Fun, More Value!
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I liked the system also it is pretty flexible the way we worked it .All the bots names went into a hat and the first two and the next two were paired to fight the last one had a bye for that round .After the round all the bots except the one that had the bye went back into the hat and the first one was paired with the bye the next two got paired and the last got the bye .

It also eliminated the same robot geting another bye in the next round .once or mabee twice i cant rember , one robot wasnt ready but the other pair were waiting so they went first giveing a bit more time for the other pair to be ready .

I managed to organise things , get a BBQ lunch ready, check on my kids in the house and the one's i was baby sitting and still keep two robots going. I had to do two wheel changes on the Cheese in between and i still had a relaxing no rush day and time to chat and watch nearly all the matches .

I dont know how it will go with a lot more bots but im gueseig that it would be much similar and easier than the tree format. Also the point system took the hassles out of close judges decisions any matches that looked too close were just given a tie and 1 point each.

If it was an easy win the winner got 2 points and the looser 0 all the points were added up at the end of the day after each bot had the same number of fights .. it might have been one down with the byes i cant remember , but the total was added up and the robot with highest points was the winner .

I think we started the battles at about 10.30 ish and finished the day around 3 ish

That's been my point for ages.....
....elimination trees work great for all sports that have a winner and a loser. Since bot combat seems to involve judges a LOT, the tree system won't work well and it gets slowed down every time judges are required to make a decision

The round robin system removes the NEED to win to keep on fighting, hence the lack of judges required, therefore the day runs smoother and everyone can get a full event worth of bouts.



.....said it before and will no doubt say it again - phuck the judges, let the bots decide.
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There is no such thing as excessive carnage.