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The Eternal Walker Debate
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Knightrous
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Joined: 15 Jun 2004
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Anarchy has individual legs and won a few rounds, before it was beaten by a highly respectable robot, Tornado. Sure, Anarchy isn't the perfect walker, I still don't like the round and round parts contacting the legs, but if it was modified to use something like a half-swinging crank, it would be more like a linear actuator, except it would be faster!

But by the rules, building such a mechanism is classed as a non-walker. So unless it has servos or LA's, it's not a walker, and if it's got servos or LA's, it's not worth building.
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Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:02 pm 
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Glen
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why not give hover crafts and flying bots an advantage while your at it Cool

because thats how i see it, legs are a pointless addition in a combat robot and should be left for dead really if you dont want to cram them into a featherweight. a drill is a useless weapon... therefore should you be given a couple of extra kilos to make it work better?

imho shufflers can be done in the weight limit quite easily and i definitely intend on building one sometime down the track. offers the advantages track style traction with awesomeness of wheels Smile, i think thatll be next on the list of robots.

i think anarchy as with any shuffler or walker is cool, yet i see it as even more slack then drillzilla or that radicus shuffler. its just a piece of glorified bar hinging on a rotating sprocket instead of the multiple plates and cams.

so what is OUR rule wrt to shufflers these days?
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Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:38 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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I dont speak for other EO's, but as far as I'm concerned, a shuffler is a robot and subject to the same rules as a wheeled bot.. weight included.

I know that will probably bring more outcries of stifling innovation etc etc..

In response to that, I suggest all the frustrated walker builders get together and agree with each other on a *seperate* class from the main featherweight class.

If you can get 4 or more robots built according to the rules you come up with, that can run a few demo or exhibition matches for 3 minutes without falling apart, then, like the lightweights, I will include a seperate class at future events.

I will not modify the featherweight rules that we run (that are in accordance with the world standards) to the advantage of an as-yet nonexistant group of robots.
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Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:03 pm 
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Knightrous
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quote:
i think anarchy as with any shuffler or walker is cool, yet i see it as even more slack then drillzilla or that radicus shuffler. its just a piece of glorified bar hinging on a rotating sprocket instead of the multiple plates and cams.


Each of Anarchy's legs has a 2DOF. The top sprocket lifts the leg up and down, and the bottom moves the leg forward and backwards. The problem is that it moves them in a circular motion, I would like to refine the Anarchy system and replace the direct circular motion with a linear movement via two cranks and linkages.

Lol, reading my post sounds like I'm trying to build a walker. Shame I'm not though.


quote:
mho shufflers can be done in the weight limit quite easily and i definitely intend on building one sometime down the track. offers the advantages track style traction with awesomeness of wheels , i think thatll be next on the list of robots.


Shufflebots (KFC, Son of Whyachi, and Drillzilla[Drillzilla is not a walker like Anarchy]) definately have good advantages with traction and can maintain a good speed, plus they can infact be done inside the weight limit.

You might be barking up the right tree there Glen... Super King Cobra. Urathane shuffle plates, Dewalt motors, steel armour Wink Plenty of push, plus plenty of traction!
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Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:20 pm 
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Daniel
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by TDT:
Each of Anarchy's legs has a 2DOF. The top sprocket lifts the leg up and down, and the bottom moves the leg forward and backwards. The problem is that it moves them in a circular motion, I would like to refine the Anarchy system and replace the direct circular motion with a linear movement via two cranks and linkages.


Wrong.

You can not have 2 degrees of freedom if it only has one input. Just because the leg was driven by 2 inputs doesn't mean 2 DOF. You MUST look at the entire mechanism including the gear box or drive train back to the motor/motors, not a single link. Anarchy is a classic four-bar shuffler, not a walker. It doesn't fit the Battlebots 2 DOF rules or the RFL uniterrupted drive rules, only the Robot Wars "the kids will think its a walker" rules.

Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:04 pm 
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Knightrous
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Mmm. The term 2DOF, was used incorrectly in my last post Embarassed . The top and bottom movements even though seperate, are not individually 'free', because they are locked together via chains. 2 Degrees of Motion (DOM) is probably a more suited term Smile for my last post.


quote:
Anarchy is a classic four-bar shuffler, not a walker.


I dissagree to an extent. I wouldn't call Anarchy a shuffler, but I wouldn't class it as a perfect walker either. Anarchy has 'legs', which are things you need to walk(Snakes can't walk, they don't have legs), Son of Whyachi has shuffle pads/feet, not 'legs', so instantly is not a walker. If it doesn't have legs as defined by the dictionary, tt's not possible for it to walk.

This has legs.
http://www.boltontech.org.uk/sprinter.htm

This doesn't have legs.
http://www.teammadcow.com/kfc.htm
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Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:57 am 
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Nexus
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sound of crickets chirping
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Post Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:45 pm 
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Rotwang
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I have way too many Bots to build to get distracted here. Evil or Very Mad

Post Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:13 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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So, potential Walker builders.. Where are you ? Wink

Like I said, hash out a set of rules you all agree on, and hold some demo's. If you dont all get bogged down in bunfights, and can keep your legs on, then we'll look at running a walker only class.

That way your legs will be safe from rammers and spinners etc and there wont be the temptation to try and make a bumpy wheel - no matter how long and stick(sorry, I meant leg)-like the bumps may look. Razz

Oh sorry, I thought you said wa L kers.. must've mis-heard. Twisted Evil
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Post Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:30 pm 
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Rotwang
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This is what I would call a shuffler!


http://www.sakakibara-kikai.co.jp/products/other/LW.htm

check the vidio Smile

Post Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:49 am 
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cerberus3112



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 497
Location: Mt Druitt,Sydney,NSW


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hey no jokes but its $200,000 apox and it shoot foam balls and has a camerra at its feet so you can see what its doing i read about it in book or something that is preety close to it Wink
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Post Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:22 pm 
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DavidM



Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 41
Location: Victoria, Australia, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy


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Although my bot did walk on the weekend, it wasn't a major success of moving even one step at robowars as the micro died in the arena. However as there is a walking (you will have to take my word on this) bot, this thread now has a tangible element.

Before I go any further I do obviously have a vested interest and it should be know Werewolf weighs in at about 16kg - approximately 2.5 overweight, not much overweight considering the aethetics involved.

The "drive" mechanism was derived from a bipedal PIC robot called Bigfoot, I'm not sure if it was the first to use the mechanism however its been around for many years. Think 'Robosapien', I think it may use a similiar type of drive. The mechanism uses two motors, that are driven in a sequence, the gearbox/linkages never complete more than say 40 degrees of angular movement and the motors are switched alternately backwards and forwards under sequenced control of the micro - although relays/logic or manual control could be used in its simplest form.

I don't think Werewolf qualifies under the true spirit of a walker, and the two independant degrees of freedom of each leg legally disqualify the "drive". One however could modify the "drive" design to have four motors which could possibly comply with the rule.

However I don't think it fits as a shuffler either, but with some ingenuity it could possibly work without the alternating motor directions and work of some sort of crank mechanism, although to get everything synchronised and be able to turn left or right as well as forward/bach probably should deserve a bonus anyway - as it wouldn't be trivial, if not extremely difficult, to darn near impossible.

I can understand the no-shuffler rule, to remove bumpy wheels and cranks from being used as tricks.

As discussed in the tread the easiest rule is the EO decides, and I am cool with this, but what would be useful is a decision on the weight for EO deemed "sort of walking, but not a walker bonus".

My suggestion 16kg Smile say 3kg bonus weight (way less than the 50% bonus).

But seriously its an extra 3 kg is fairly meager for the effort and getting the EO's support.

And if Werewolf is deemed walking and recieved the bonus, we would have our first walking bot and possibly the end of this 'eternal' debate.

DavidM

P.S.

When I turned up, it was obvious to me that Werewolf would not be competitive or dangerous bot. I have bossibly gone to far over to the demonstration or novelty bot side, but I think it fills a niche in the spectrum of bots that we have.

DM
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Post Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:58 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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Walkers are getting closer ! Wink

http://paulgraham.com/anybots.html
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Post Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:40 pm 
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Knightrous
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Trevor Blackwell is working on that project too.. He's the guy that made his own backyard segway and segway-unicycle.

I think you should get the "Necromancer" award here Brett for reviving such an old and dead topic... Laughing
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Post Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:00 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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Yes, It took some dusting to find it, but given that its not really a combat walker I didnt want to start the whole chain of events off again.. Smile
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Post Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:56 pm 
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