True, we all get more for less nowadays - you forgot to mention cheap brushless motors and better quality wheels BTW


Without any hint of criticism of this site or the huge amount of work that Spockie has put into it, I always wonder why it doesn't attract more active builders? I see a small but steady stream of people signing up, but only a very few go on to post comments or even visit an event. Does this mean that only 1 in 100,000 people has the balls to get into something new? Should we have a splash screen saying something like "Its not rocket science"? I count 45 new site members and only 4 serious new builders this year. That's almost a 1 in 10 'conversion rate' and pretty good really, but how to get more people to register in the first place? If there were 400 registrations, we would be swamped in new builders! It can't be lack of content, per builder I think we post far more then the RFL site.

I'm interested because we want to tart up the NSWRFC site and I don't want to put in the effort if it isn't effective.

In my opinion, New user registrations on a forum are not a good indicator of genuine interest.

Since the recent increase in human spammers (rather than bots), I have found it necessary to change the new user activation mode to manual rather than automatic.

The new-user requirement to lookup the code on the Wiki stopped the bots cold, but it didnt stop the masses of human (?) 3rd-world "sales affiliates" (ie, some broke kid in Bolivia with a computer and a net connection) spamming every forum they can find with links to shell-sites selling iphones for click-thru pennies.

Now, all new user accounts are initially disabled for a few days to a week, then I will process them in a batch of about 5 or 10.

I do a google lookup on the email address that they have registered with (mostly gmail, yahoo, hotmail or other free-webmail providers) and its usually fairly obvious whether they have been spamming other forums with wares-peddling crap. 3/4 of them are like that.

The ones that dont show any spam postings I activate and send a "welcome your account is now active" email to. Approximately 1/4 of them go on to post something.

In my somewhat-jaded opinion, much as I am an IT person myself, 90% of the nets surfers are not people capable of, or inclined to, do anything more real-world difficult than installing a graphics card in their pc to play the latest game they downloaded from the net. Most would be lucky to own (or know how to use) any more tools than a screwdriver.

Thats why I think promotional efforts would be better focussed towards people who already have shown a willingness to pick up a spanner, get themselves organised and actually make it to some form of event/meeting. Hence my Go-Kart etc ideas.

I think that would be much more likely to find real builders instead of trying to pick the occasional one out of a cloud of thousands of armchair heroes.

But if you want to open up a new data dump for casual surfers, be prepared to spend a lot of time cleaning up irrelevant crap postings.

I wish moderators had the power to approve new users...
_________________
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

I don't think the sport needs two forums - the NSWRFC should be more of a fixed content promo & info site. That makes it much easier to maintain, which is a real motivation to me

A 1 in 10 ratio of active builders to registrations is great, particularly when quite a few registrations are from OS and are obviously never going to be active. I would like to see how we can get more people visiting the sites in the first place - we obviously can't just sit around waiting to be discovered.

http://www.google.com/search?q=robot+wars+australia

First two (And sort of 3) results
it cant get much easier than that
Anyone who cant find that isnt really trying

Also, linked from their homepage
http://sidetracked.com.au/

About the only other thing I could think of would be to try and buy a TV ad during any repeat screenings of Robot Wars or Battlebots on Aus cable or FTA TV stations, but you'd be looking at Big $ I'd imagine.
_________________
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

Supose we do get in more builders, we put in an add a tv show and get in dosens of builders interested, then what?
They all turn up for the first few events, and drop off like the all the good builders have over the years cause we have no direction.

The fist event we had at Rye, as far as I remember, there was 10 or so builders there, Rick, George, Mel, Tim, and what happened to that ultibots guy? I had high hopes for him.
Some of the builders are still in, but why are they leaving us all the time.

Admittidly some may have had a personality clash, but I would have thought that would not matter if there was enough passion there.

Why did no one come to the last Vic event at my place? was it the snags? it's the snags isn't it.

Would have though we could be twice the size by now.
_________________
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.

Ah well, now you're getting deeper than I really want to think about much

Off the top of my head, its probably a combination of factors.

In my experience, Bot builders seem to be a fairly fractious bunch, like a lot of fringey creative people often are. It doesnt take much to spark off a big argument, we all know how much builders love to argue over the rules, and its not confined to us Aussies. I recall the UK F.R.A. was once dubbed the "Fighting Roboteers Association" (rather than Robots), and I've seen similair ego battles on the Battlebots and RFL Forums. It makes someone like myself trying to organise an event feel a bit like we're trying to herd cats on occasion.

The you have the age thing I mentioned, where a large percentage of the keenest fans are young boys with limited resources, who start off all fired up, but when they discover that its a bit harder and more expensive to build a good bot than attacking a radio controlled car with a screwdriver and pliers go and get discouraged

The few youngins that do manage it, then reach the 16-18 year age and discover girls, cars, schoolwork and so on and sometimes loose interest in favour of them.

The mature builders are often either dissapointed with the lack of serious events, the lack of publicity/fame/rewards or just suffer a lack of planning or discipline causing the infamous marathon friday night building sessions forcing them to front with a hastily prepped robot that performs poorly, leading to more dissapointment. This has been a problem since day 1 of the sport. Ask any Vet Battlebot builder.

To assist with that aspect of things, what I suspect is needed is a gradually escalating series of builders meets leading up to a public event, so builders have a series of deadlines to meet, and if youre bot isnt running well at the last one private meet prior to a big show, you dont get to enter the big show. Hard to turn builders away though.

Possibly something like the oft-discussed newbie "qualifying" sessions that Battlebots used to run for several days prior to the "finals" where the cameras were turned on would help.

As far as your events go Danny, for me, no it wasnt the Snags. I often had other things on that didnt seem worth pushing out of the way for a backyard event, my Robot usually wasnt ready, and I personally didnt like the lack of safety, organisation and sheltered pit space.

As the driver of a reasonably dangerous spinner robot, I didnt relish the idea of I.G's blade or shrapnel pieces coming off and going through the fence at a neighbour, or one of the many kids that seemed to feel free to poke their heads over or around the polycarb anytime they felt like it.

Having pit tables in the open air without shelter always left me worried that Id get rained on, and the couple of ones I attended nobody seemed to have any plan as to who was fighting who, when, how, judging, or even who won on many occasions. Sorry, but that just didnt inspire me to make a lot of effort to return (assuming my bot was ready, which it often wasnt).

Plus personally, I'm spending most of my spare cash on rebuilding my car, and my spare time on developing some new electronics at present.

So, thats why I think (repeating myself sorry), I think what is needed people-wise is keen *young* drivers (who arent a year or so off being young adults with new interests), supported by parents with the capability/resources who have experience at getting their shit together and fronting at sporting events that require deadline-style preparation...

Typically motor racing types (IMO) - football and other kids ball-games dont require much in the way of preparation to sucessfully *compete*. Maybe to *win*, but even if you havent practiced much, and lose, you still get a full games worth of running around on the field. With Mech-style-Sports however, if you dont prepare and practice, you often end up "back on the trailer" (as they say in many motor sports) shortly after starting, which discourages many.

Perhaps a "builders-plan" document for newbies to follow. Budget sheet, buy radio from X, ESC from Y. Batteries from Z, support systems (chargers, tools etc). a schedule - aim to have wheels mounted to motors by this date, Batteries and charger organised by this date. ready for testing by this date and so on.

Maybe some heavily encouraged standardisation of ESC and battery pack sizes and connector plugs etc, that make it easy for newbies to have their machines tested with an experienced builders electronics or to swap/borrow/buy spares in the event of failure at an event.

Anyway, as I said, I'm not personally going to try and implement any of these things.. I've done my time pushing the wagon.. If no-one else can be bothered pushing for a while, well, it can just roll along at its own pace and stop or not as will be. I'll help where I can and offer free advice (for whatever its worth), but Im not cracking whips at anyone these days. Its up to you guys as to whether it grows or shrinks from here.
_________________
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

I would have to say it has been a largely disappointing year in QLD. I am as much to blame as anyone, the kerros have been great in keeping things going but I don't think we have had any members since metal mayhem 2 back who knows how many years ago. This is despite the ideas festival which was a pretty large public event. I have seen a few new builders on the site but no one has actually made it to an event.

I have sorta lost interest myself. I have not really seriously built a bot in years. I threw something together for ideas fest but it had no serious time put into it. I have been playing more with autonomous stuff in my spare time. This is due to a number of factors the most significant being a decrease in time and also a lack of a feasible workshop.

The main issue I think is no stream of new members to keep people motivated and to bring new ideas. I know that USYD do actually have a course where they have teams that build combat robots that are based on the rules but so far I dont think anyone has actually bothered to compete as they know they are so far below the expected sydney level.

There was a similar discussion which sort of came up with one of the guys over at the curtin comp. If you have a look at the micro mouse comps they are now getting to the stage where the robots can solve those mazes in a ridiculously small amount of time, simply because the robots have been refined so much. Its pretty much the same in robowars. Maybe we should be looking at letting the comp evolve more over time rather than a standard rule set so that each time there is slightly different challenges to be solved. How?.... ah I am not sure yet but might be an idea to make it more challenging and interesting for vets and give beginners at least a window to enter the comp.

Just my thoughts

Steve
_________________
Steven Martin
Twisted Constructions
http://www.botbitz.com

OMG i had the most massive post done and this stupid thinkpad keyboard thwarted me again ill have my revenge i will. So this post is dedicated to the illogical lenovo thinkpad keyboard.

I dont have any answers for anything really. but ill just hurl my ranting thoughts and ramblings in the ring irregardless. Forgive me for everything hereafter i havent typed something this long since my HSC

Just to throw it out there, whether theres 6 robots in the country or 600 ill do this hobby to the end (and that wont be for many many mannyy years ill gaurantee you that) and most definitely long past that time. Ive done nearly every hobby (dont mix up a hobby with a sport!) and nothing has the appeal of this one in every way.

I dont see that the interest has died out in this state at least, its more that for the first year or two we went ballistic over it and gave it 120% to make sure it wouldnt die out, and now we're a well established little group its almost been absorbed into our lives as a given thing and we take things a little more relaxed then before. i love that you can take your time building something new because it will still be there by the time your done.

back in the first few years if you took 3 months to slap something together it might have been gone.. so dont confuse the intial rush of robots and construction we had in the bygone days to what we have now

NOW. where was i. oh yeah going foward.

Clearly we cant expect the huge numbers that were to be had in the battlebot and robot wars era. What was the entry number in robot wars days? i think it was over 300 nearly. Even had to try out to get into the thing. Dont recall the battlebots entry numbers but i believe they were even higher again because of the multiple classes. nearly 500

Bearing in mind that these shows were both prime time and nation wide. So you literally cant get better exposure then that. Clearly that got people into it with those entry numbers.

But did they do it for TV or for the enjoyment (maybe both)? Because after battlebots and robot wars (ill just call them the shows for the rest of the post) dissappeared so did probably 80% of the competition despite a number of public events on either side.

I think globally the number of people into this hobby is pretty damn respectable given that you can't just go out and buy the Robowars kit version 1.0 off the local hobby stores shelf.

To be fair the amount of people into RC racing for example which is an established form of hobby for the last 20 years at the moment is pretty sorry. i was gunna take up racing in addition to my other hobbies but even down at the SORMCC i think it is, which is sposed to be one of the bigger clubs near me there was only a handful of people there on a number of race days.

Deduce from that what you will

Now in this country we sort of missed the boat initially i guess. The ARWO (thats the first organisation we had in this country for all you youngins) wasnt set up until Robot wars was yanked off the air in this country (after series 6 on fox kids). It was quite a long time actually like 6 months plus. So everyone that might have gotten into it on the "hey thats pretty cool i might give it a crack" factor had long since forgotten.

I recall it took me about a year since the show was taken off the air to find the ARWO "site". i dont recall how i remembered the old show though. Might have been through those robot wars articles in the real robots magazines.. but i was reading all the old posts on the original robot wars forum and found some thread in the australian part with a link in it.

You couldnt even find the site by typing the specific words of it into google nor the later ABBL. To be fair the robowars pages and forum weren't even on the first handful of pages on google up until 2 years ago or so.

If everyone could chip in with how they came to find out about the hobby / forum in this country then i think that would be a good indicator for what the issue is with new people finding us. Especially the members that joined up in the early robot wars days to before this robowars forum when it was so hard to find anything.

Now however, the exposure for us has been better then ever. you cant even search up anything mildly robot related without a link to the robowars forum jumping up on something like battery tech, brushless motors. Even random searches throw pages from this forum up

Same with youtube which is probably one of the most used sites in the world these days. Theres hundreds if not thousands of videos from us up there and plenty of recent ones that jump up with any robot related search with australia in it

The public events we have done have had some plenty decent crowds too, notably the first robowars event (geez how long ago was that) that was totally packed and the pair of brisbane ideas festival events had a huge turnout. Come to think of it, was anyone that was a spectator of those events a building member now? I have a hunch none are. but surprise me!

Dont forget that model engineering thing in melbourne a while ago. There was tons of attendance there and plenty stopped to have a look

So its hard to say if exposure is the problem. Because it conflicts with what we've experienced here and whats happened in the early days of the big tv shows.

but threads like this make me worried. how can they think we're still not going when this is probably one of the most active forums going + how easy it is to find info on us.

http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=818456

Is it because people see the videos of our spinners and the better robots (ill be honest here i think everyone building a serious spinner in this country can and probably will build something a whole bunch more powerful and reliable in the next year or two) and go hell no i cant compete with that.

I doubt it. Because most new people - myself included - think they're gods gift to robot wars bar some very sensible beginners and believe theyll just build something better and destroy us I thought i was gunna whack a heavyweight together over the weekend and beat the shit out of hypno disk when i was 14 haha.

We arent even getting that kinda verbal diarreah anymore :S

Added to that is the fact that unless you've done something very related to this like home machining and radio control something or other combined they probably dont know what it really requires to make something like that. God only knows im far from being a decent builder (if you know me well enough youll know im the most clumsy idiot on this planet) and i still put demon together 100% myself start to finish and it does pretty well. Hell i literally still cant even drill two holes straight So anyone has the potential i dont care what anyone says.

Do people dismiss it as being too expensive? i think **MAYBE** on the outside of things you could easily pass even the most basic of our robots off for costing at least $1000 or something like that unless someone said otherwise.

In mini moto the cheapest bike in the top class is $3000 second hand and the new price is now over $10,000 and i think its a comparable hobby in many ways like its obscurity (its a very serious competition btw ) and commitment level required. In NSW they still get about the same amount of new competitors as us. 1 or 2 a year maybe.

If only they knew you could put a new robot together with some of the best parts for well under $1000. i reckon i could put demon together in its current form for $500 if i had to purchase EVERYTHING. and under $1000 if i had to have someone else machine and weld the required parts.

This hobby is so cheap compared to everything. i havent managed to escape a race day with change from $200 and thats pretty good for most. THATS ONE DAY OF RACING. the entry fee alone is $75 and the membership is $85.

Very hard to find info on the over all cost on this forum, on robot combat webpages and just everywere in general. A little more info on that would go a long way IMHO.

A run down of the costs involved in an average year of roboting + putting something decent together somewhere would be good. I reckon we would all surprise ourselves even at how cheap it really is.

Ive put about $8000 into my first year in mini moto (initial cost of getting everything + the year long costs of spares and entry fees) and i dont reckon go karting would be a single cent cheaper.

Another thing i miss now days is concise build reports on websites. In the old school days nearly every RW competitor had a website with a build report and a run down of the cost so you could get a good idea of what was required to build one. There all gone now and some of our build reports are blardy massive. youd need a week solid to go from one end to the other haha. guilty as charged on that one >__>; Pisses me off im so clueless WRT websites cause i really wanted to do a good one.

Perhaps thats something for Nick to do on our NSW site, gather up a few start to finish builders reports that are somewhat detailed but not overly belated with pics and everything and have them on there with an accurate run down of the initial cost + spares + replacement parts over the year etc.

Hmm im not done with my ranting yet whats another random thought i had.

Oh yeah teams. That seems to be something we also diverged from compared to the show days. Single person teams were in the vast minority back then. Today how many actual "TEAMS" (aka more then one builder per team) are there? uhhummmm not many. Neweyn and Matt are the only ones that spring to mind instantly. im sure there might be a couple more but its 2am so forgive me.

Maybe a team challenge could be an awesome way to get people into it en masse and really reinvigorate those who have fallen out of things a little. say two or more people at least, veterans or new builders, have to work together to put together a robot for a comp. throw the word out a little chuck up a few posters wear the shirts around and heyyy who knows what might happen. no spinners either (phwoar theres a grenade), there could be some great potential there for some out there designs and great over all robots. I really enjoyed building phailbot with angus. even tho it only took 3 days it was refreshing to have someone else to work with. very much so

My backs getting sore now haha so ill shut up soon lmao.

So i think exposure as it stands is pretty good unless we go forcing it down peoples throats, Maybe a little bit lacking in information for beginners, current robots scaring people off? hmmmh i dont think so initially but i can definitely see that people like the Georges, Andrew A's and David's (arachnaphobia) of the world could be a little turned off by putting their master pieces in with some variety of bots and it would be a great shame to see things like that fade into the history books.

I dont want to let go of what ive spent so many years and events building up to either cause i feel ive climbed up to such a high level and to have everything shifted about rules and regulations wise to sort of cap that would be a kick in the nuts and i reckon more then a few would feel the same way.

Thats not to say two classes cant co exist on an equal level though. A bit like world super sport and world super bike. one is clearly more powerful but the other much better handling and despite the differences there is no "a" class or "b" class. they're equal. Id like to see that happen with us.

Splitting up the classes is usually a bad thing in hobbys or sports with a limited number of entrants but i think in our situation it will work out for the better in a big way, because we will get back the builders that have err'd on the side of caution and sat out lately, im sure more then a handful of builders will cross over into the other class in addition to the current one to bring their ideas they could never quite justify in the current world of combat robots and the newys will have somewhere to wet their feet and get their skills up to speed with the rest of us like i said in some other thread.

because i reckon a few of us would have a hard time getting competitive (just surviving?) if we jumped into this crazy hobby right now as opposed to all that time ago.

Just lets none of us whine and take things for granted too much because who knows. maybe it'll all get taken away from us one day. I have to drive 2 hours to wollongong just to ride my freakin race minimoto or ill get raped (figure of speech people, figure of speech) by the police. 15 years ago i could ride my pw50 all over the farkin shop and never get hassled. Funs a dying hobby in itself. Id hate to be the next generation.

Anyway thats me done. ill shout a beer to anyone at robowars that can make sense of any of it XD. Let the first decade of Australian robot combat roll on! not far off that now!

Unrelated - i might write up a history of our freakish hobby from the beggining to the current pics and all haha. Whats the bet no more then 5 know the whole story
_________________
www.demon50s.com - Minimoto parts
http://www.youtube.com/user/HyzerGlen - Videoooozzz

I can understand the reasoning behind attracting younger builders but maybe targeting older builders is an easier option.
Something i thought about a while ago was targeting Pubs.
If a pub vs pub comp could be set up i think that would be interesting,before we all go off on the "oh alcohol and robots don't mix" there would be no drinking till after the comps.I suppose something similar to pub v pub golf days or pub v pub cricket days
The competition in our case could be held at jeffs arena over a couple of weekends with teams competing against eachother to make the finals.
Its not something ive totally planned but an option.
I recall a lot of the early 'Robot Wars UK" teams were pub mates who started teams.
Any thoughts?
_________________
Photos - http://community.webshots.com/album/154092733uokpXC
Photos- http://community.webshots.com/album/166819552PDWWqP

Perhaps a new forum topic along the lines of new competitors welcomes.

Make it clear that we wont new cannon fodder I mean competitors.

Basic bot building tips, if we can ever agree what they are or at least a couple of real reasonably simple bots that can be cloned cheaply and show how they were built to get someone started.

Probably a horizontal-thwack for the Vic suggestion there.

Suggest people start with a simple bot first.
Get some experience before starting that really complicated expensive bot.

More pit fights as they are less destructive and still fun to watch and compete, I even bought a smoke machine yesterday.
Our backyard arena is a long way off but I still won’t to do it.

I am still backing no spinner lightweights as an alternate class and OzBot outdoors for the big stuff.
_________________
Satisfaction is proportional to effort and results.

Love the lightweights idea and i like the mdf class concept as well for newbs.
_________________
Photos - http://community.webshots.com/album/154092733uokpXC
Photos- http://community.webshots.com/album/166819552PDWWqP

I like the idea of a detailed how-to information site. It wouldn't be such a hard thing to put together and it might pay for itself with some Google ads. The hardest part is the content - its not easy or quick to produce more interesting stuff. One thing I would like to put up is some how-two videos - how to operate various tools how to assemble various bit of a bot, etc. Just short 3 to 5 minute clips that I could shoot at home or the arena.

Another idea is to have a hall of fame featuring the more unusual designs with photos and a build report, which we might be able to skim off this site. Showing people how to build flame-throwers, lifters and hammer bots might diversify the bots more.

ill take you up on that wrt to content Just after i finish off some robot wars esque mash ups of our recent robot footage Will do a detailed build of demon from beginning to end with the mods done and some generalised other ones.

another thing i was thinking of while i couldnt sleep (wtf is with this heat, oh thats right its summer) is a newsletter type email every 2nd month for everyone registered. just so they dont forget we havent died off i get a few from random forums i registered at and go ahhhh thats right

altho most people probably check the dont send me content box on the forum
_________________
www.demon50s.com - Minimoto parts
http://www.youtube.com/user/HyzerGlen - Videoooozzz

I like the informative site Idea, sort of like taking the wiki further, I would gladly write content for it, it's holidays and I have masses of free time, although I am sure my knowledge is somewhat limited in comparison to everyone else here.

OK, time for some Action! I will have a crack at a new site Don't expect much within the next three months as I have to brush up on several programs and three or for web technologies!

So far, I have sorted out some graphics for page templates and surveyed a large number of Bot builder sites - its disappointing how many are now off-line. Below is my front page and main menu description, I could definitely use some feedback on it:

Front page:

News: - Next event, club and bot community events

About: - all about the NSWRFC

Featured bot: - pics, report & videos of different bots

Get started: - info and links for new builders



Menu system:

Videos

Page per year

Current calendar
Past events
Arena location

FAQ
Videos
Guides – drill motors, drilling, tapping, tools, etc

Reference – calculators, conversions, tables etc
Robot teams & clubs
Supplies
Tools – suppliers,

Downloads – CAD files, reference material
Builder reports