www.robowars.org

RoboWars Australia Forum Index -> Rules, Safety, Administration

An idea to encourage EO's
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next

Post new topic   Reply to topic
  Author    Thread
Spockie-Tech
Site Admin


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 3160
Location: Melbourne, Australia


 Reply with quote  
An idea to encourage EO's

I bet this one wont fly, but it will be interesting to see reactions to it.

A possible method to encourage Event Organisers to do so.

The biggest problem a Robot Wars Event Organiser faces is competitor turnout.. Its not worth organising a big visually appealing, well run public show for 5 or 10 robots, half of which will probably retire after round 2 or 3.

Also, as we all know, builders often run into time issues, and dont show with a working bot
(sorry, blew up my esc at 3am the night before the event when I finally finished wiring it up - translated - I left my job until the last minute, did a rush job, screwed it up, and so cant make it, sorry about that, your problem now)

So how about, instead of insignificant entry fees and piddly prizes, we put some serious motivation for both sides (EO and competitor) in there ?

Something like a $100 - $500 entry fee that has to be *paid in advance*, the EO doesnt even start organising anything until a certain agreed-upon minimum level of funding/entrants is reached *and paid for*, then the date is set X months from now and the process begins.

If a competitor doesnt show, they lose their entry fee entirely - no excuses, you failed to live up to your end of the bargain and left the EO in the lurch, so you lose.

For every round that your robot makes it into the arena and puts on a credible battle (as decided by the judges), you get x% of your entry fee back. Make it all the way to the finals, and you get 100% of your entry fee back.

[edit: - if you get knocked out of an eliminator comp, you can still get a smaller percentage of your entry fee back by doing filler or second-round fights (if you can) - or a round-robin type structure which allows you to continue competing even after a number of losses.

Win the event, and you get x% of the remaining unrefunded (due to competitor no shows) fees as prize money. The EO gets a percentage as their reward for doing the event.

This puts responsibility for trying to compete back in the hands of the competitors - removing the option for them to drop out anytime its too much work for them to try harder with without any penalty to them.

It gives the EO a guaranteed budget to work with up front and gives them some confidence that entrants will make a reasonable effort.

It encourages competitors to put in a serious effort, and gets rid of the last-minute junk bots from the big budget events. Junk bots can still play, if they are prepared to ante up against the competition, or they can enter a smaller event with a lower entry fee until they get better.

So, you want more, better organised, bigger events with an audience ?
Are *you* prepared to put *your* money where your mouth is and consider an idea like this ?

Or does that sound too scary and you want to retain the option to bail out without consequences whenever you feel like it ? In which case, I'll shut up and get back to doing other stuff.

Just a thought, opinions ?
_________________
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

Post Sun May 29, 2011 2:11 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
marto
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 5459
Location: Brisbane, QLD


 Reply with quote  

I like the sound of that. Would make my job much easier. Still a few issues there I think though.

If its paid before event is organised what does the EO have to come up with? I guess there is always the option of refunding entree fee.

Would bots still be able to enter after the minimum number is reached? (Could see a few people waiting for others to register to get it started then jumping in at the last minute)

Edit": Also credible fight leaves a quite a few issues.
_________________
Steven Martin
Twisted Constructions
http://www.botbitz.com

Post Sun May 29, 2011 2:21 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Spockie-Tech
Site Admin


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 3160
Location: Melbourne, Australia


 Reply with quote  

A sensible EO would have a maximum number of robots that could be handled in the available time. Try to enter after that number is reached, and its too bad for you.

I realise an EO would be tempted to keep accepting entrants beyond what could realistically be handled, but I dont see that as being a problem in Australia anytime soon with a serious entry fee. Entrant lists could be handled on a Wiki or BuildersDB type of thing.

You could offer "Early bird" discounted entry fees to help those who are prepared to commit early.. but its not really necessary, since you dont announce an event or date until the number is reached, so there is no "last minute" cutoff - just nothing happens until the field is full.

Credible fight is easy - judges assign points in the usual categories. get less than X points, and your fight is considered a piss-poor attempt and doesnt get you any credit. Allowing a competitoer to throw a wrecked lump of metal in than moves 1 inch and expecting a reward for it raises more issues.
_________________
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

Post Sun May 29, 2011 2:26 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Vignesh



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 305
Location: Dandenong North Victoria


 Reply with quote  

I like it but what if your robot gets completely trashed and you cant get past even the first or second round? Might happen with new bots.



But also i really dont like to lose money...
_________________
Viggy!
1st Robot in progress!

Post Sun May 29, 2011 2:39 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
marto
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 5459
Location: Brisbane, QLD


 Reply with quote  

Well to be honest that is a pretty big problem for your EO as he/she then has to try and fill in fights for the rest of the tournament. Its part of your responsibility to bring a bot which will be able to keep fighting.

However I would imaging that a significant portion would be refunded for just competing in the first round.

*Edit* or she

Steve
_________________
Steven Martin
Twisted Constructions
http://www.botbitz.com

Post Sun May 29, 2011 2:42 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Spockie-Tech
Site Admin


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 3160
Location: Melbourne, Australia


 Reply with quote  

Newbies - Dont play with the big boys if you arent prepared to lose Smile

If you have put a serious effort into your bot, then you are risking more by possibly getting it reduced to rubble by a dangerous bot, than just a few hundred $ of cash. your hours of work and expensive parts could get destroyed.

If a newcomer made their bot for $100 and you threw it together in a weekend, then why should someone who has put more effort into their machine have to fight their way past a swarm of junk bots with little to lose ? The loseable entry fee keeps the junk bots in the background until they decide to be serious about it.

If time permits, an event could run a "budget class" with a lower entry fee in addition to the "serious class", but Im thinking that budget class is better off left for an entirely seperate event..

If you want to play little-leage football, thats fine, but dont expect a spot at the MCG on Grand Final Day unless you are prepared to pay for it.
_________________
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people


Last edited by Spockie-Tech on Sun May 29, 2011 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Sun May 29, 2011 2:48 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Glen
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 9481
Location: Where you least expect


 Reply with quote  

Fair enough you pay in advance for a big event, that's the way its done in the us of a.

I don't think i've ever been in possession of $500 at any one time in the last 5 years though XD
_________________
www.demon50s.com - Minimoto parts
http://www.youtube.com/user/HyzerGlen - Videoooozzz

Post Sun May 29, 2011 2:48 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Spockie-Tech
Site Admin


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 3160
Location: Melbourne, Australia


 Reply with quote  

Well, the price then entrants are prepared to pay determines the scale of event that the EO can do.

If noone wants to pay more than $20, and the EO can run with that, then thats the type of event that happens - a $20 event.

If there are enough competitors out there that want light, sound, cameras and an audience and are confident enough in their performance to front $hundreds, then the EO knows up front they can spend Entrants x Fee $ in making a bigger production.

Without some system like this, I think that willing EO's are going to remain pretty thin on the ground as they are currently.
_________________
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people


Last edited by Spockie-Tech on Sun May 29, 2011 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Sun May 29, 2011 2:54 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
marto
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 5459
Location: Brisbane, QLD


 Reply with quote  

The problem is going to be with all the people who simply can't afford it.

So my thought here are that if you are going to be putting something of this scale then you need to have some sort of sponsorship. If I was doing this I think it would only be fair to builders to provide them some sort of sponsorship pack. (Not sure what this would contain yet)

The idea would be they should be able to use these materials to find sponsorship for their team. This would consist of Entree Fee + some fee for event and they would get advertising on your bot plus possibly some advertising on one of the arena panels or something. Would put the responsibility back on builders to go find sponsorship instead of the EO running around trying to get someone to fund event. Its also a lot easier to ask someone to sponsor your robot than it is to ask for $Xk dollars to host event.

Steve
_________________
Steven Martin
Twisted Constructions
http://www.botbitz.com

Post Sun May 29, 2011 2:55 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Knightrous
Site Admin


Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 8511
Location: NSW


 Reply with quote  

With single/double eliminator style event, it would be very unfair to anyone that goes out in the first round and cannot get their robot back for a second round. Basically half the field is throwing away their cash before they event start fighting. However, if this is applied to a round robin event, this will work great, because all robots are aiming to battle for 1-2 days, round after round, you have a good chance of earning your money back in a fair way (IE:, If your robot battles for 12 fights over 2 days, you've done a good job and deserve to get your entry back). If your robot craps it out after 3-4 battles on day one, you'll get crap all of your entry back and it will go towards the winner / EO pool.

IMHO, round robin events are better as your guaranteed to have as many battles as you can survive, which is great for both competitor, EO and crowd!
_________________
https://www.halfdonethings.com/

Post Sun May 29, 2011 3:00 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message
Nick
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 11802
Location: Sydney, NSW


 Reply with quote  

Its an interesting concept and would probably work better for large annual events - I can't see our local comp attracting that much money every 2 months.

The only real problem I can see is the open-ended event date - if I put down $500 for an event I'd like to know it won't clash with something else on my calendar. There should also be a reasonable period from when the minimum number of bots is reasched to the event date so travel & accomodation can be organised.

Post Sun May 29, 2011 3:00 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message
Spockie-Tech
Site Admin


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 3160
Location: Melbourne, Australia


 Reply with quote  

If a competitor cant afford it, then they shouldnt be trying to play at that scale.
They can find a cheaper smaller event.

Just because they made a box that moves doesnt mean they should be given equal billing at a big event as an experienced competitor who has a much greater likelyhood of making a good show.

It can work for club events too, you just set the fee at $20 (or whatever). if someone isnt prepared to front up that, then they can go down the pub and watch TV

The fee is simply an "Are you *serious* or just a joker" barrier. You set the height of the barrier according to the scale of the event. If not enough entrants can afford the entry fee, then that scale of event cant happen. simple.

Sponsorship is a whole 'nother issue. Seperate thread for that. Im talking about making it worth doing for EO's and encouraging competitors to make a serious effort.
_________________
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

Post Sun May 29, 2011 3:02 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Knightrous
Site Admin


Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 8511
Location: NSW


 Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:
If a competitor cant afford it, then they shouldnt be trying to play at that scale.
They can find a cheaper smaller event.


If we run with that ideology, we'll still be in the same rutt as we are now. No robots, No events. Razz
Probably only 5-6 "out to win" guys around these days, the rest are most likely just in it for the fun. So I'm sure an EO is really gonna run a big public event for just 5-6 robots Smile
_________________
https://www.halfdonethings.com/

Post Sun May 29, 2011 3:10 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message
Spockie-Tech
Site Admin


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 3160
Location: Melbourne, Australia


 Reply with quote  

Well, then we stay were we are..

You statement is a bit black and white though..
Im sure a significant portion would be prepared to front $20.. just not $500

The question then heads off into how many builders are willing to pay how much for what scale of event.. ie, hashing out the details of what they expect/want for their part of the bargain..

Which can be resolved over time, *if* the fundamental idea of "Pay up front, no refunds, reward for sustained performance" is accepted by a majority.

Which is what I wanted to find out the sentiment on. hashing out details can come later
_________________
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

Post Sun May 29, 2011 3:30 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Knightrous
Site Admin


Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 8511
Location: NSW


 Reply with quote  

I honestly like the idea, I just don't want it applied in a discriminatory way. We've had a shit load of junk bots win events and kick serious ass. Look at Stealth, whooped a lot of big name bots to win RoboWars, and it was just a pile of junk Andrew assembled a few nights before. But it won...

And at the same time, I don't want to push newcomwers away, the chance to compete in a big event is what draws most of them in. Telling them there robot is shit and they need to pay $200 before joining the "big boys" is a big, rude slap in the face.
_________________
https://www.halfdonethings.com/

Post Sun May 29, 2011 3:37 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message
  Display posts from previous:      

Forum Jump:
Jump to:  

Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 3

Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next

Forum Rules:
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 

Last Thread | Next Thread  >
Powered by phpBB: © 2001 phpBB Group
millenniumFalcon Template By Vereor.