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An idea to encourage EO's
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marto
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Location: Brisbane, QLD


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Yes good idea. Will have to see what masses say but would help.

Every time I organise a public event I go little balder and it takes me at least a month to mentally recover. Definite attendance would help that to some extent.
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 3:40 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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Location: Melbourne, Australia


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quote:
Originally posted by Knightrous:
Telling them there robot is shit and they need to pay $200 before joining the "big boys" is a big, rude slap in the face.


Thats not what it says.. what it says is "These guys are confident enough to put down $x to play. If you want to fight them, you have to too. If you wont ante up, you cant play"

Take it however you like, its not discriminatory.. you can run a quick-n-cheap "junk" bot if you want, just pay the same fee as everyone else to do so.

If you dont have any confidence in your creation, then why should you be allowed in the same game as those who do ?
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 3:51 pm 
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dyrodium
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 6476
Location: Sydney


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My take on things, have a look at how proper high end rc racing is organised:

http://www.qrccra.org.au/Events/2011AARCMCCQldCHAMPIONSHIP5thScaleTouring/tabid/1165/Default.aspx
1/5th would be comparable to our feather weights in terms of cost, and reliability, they can still flame out or crash on the track.
They have a $70 entry fee + $50 late entry, which sounds fair enough.

I can't really see any word of prize money, tho you get a BBQ included in the fee. Laughing

Something professional like this to sign up for big events should really be non negotiable, the EO needs to know the bots details well before the event is due to take place.

Now following through on the idea that everyone pays up front before an event date is announced, a 'rough' date could be organised prior, and to stop payments becoming messy, a service such as pledgie could be used.
http://pledgie.com/
Through pledgie, no money is deducted unless the amount required is reached. This way, if there's not enough interest for what ever reason, no messy refunds have to happen, it just doesn't go ahead. This amount would need to be decided on venue costs, arena maintenance/hiring, insurance etc. A system like this encourages team spirit because we can see how close we are to the total, so would make those national events worth while coming to again.

That's my take on things... As Aaron said, round robin is a must as it gets max fights for your buck and isn't too hard to organise. Following on from that, Bretts idea to get a bit of entry fee refunded per fight entered could easily be implemented. Razz

EDIT: on second thoughts something like kickstarter would be ideal, as you can set threshholds to get things, our event could be 'sponsered' by random people but bot builders pay a certain higher amount and that gets them their entry. Crappy kickstarter is US only...
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 3:57 pm 
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Glen
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Yeah, cost of everything is generally around $100 these days, a mini moto race is $100 for a year license then $80 just to enter for 4 races. So for a big yearly event that isn't an issue.

Totally in agreement with pre-registering/paying and forfeiting if you don't rock up with anything, as that personally shits me quite a bit when an events been planned for an eternity and 3 robots show up. Completely sucks the fun out of things that does.

Charging an exorbitant entry fee in exchange for people making better robots, iunno. Its not like any one goes out to make a shoddy robot nor is any one born with a god given gift of robot building talent, you just need experience for that.

Natural (of the robotic kind?) selection seems to take place after the first round anyway filtering out the unreliable, ineffectual ones. with regard to single elimination of course. TBH i cant see a big event such as a few robowars' ago with 20+ robots working on a round robin sytem anyway unless it spans over 3 complete days.

Only way i could see of ethically holding some kind of event with reliable known to work robots would be a type of nationals setup like they used to do over in the US a few years ago where you had to qualify through smaller events. I guess it would spur you lazy arse vics into having a few events. Laughing (i kid, i kid Razz) Or maybe as i think you suggested a few times in the past make new robots that havent competed qualify in some kind of pre-first round set up.

I guess its all speculation though until its given a go!
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Vignesh



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 305
Location: Dandenong North Victoria


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quote:
Originally posted by Knightrous:

And at the same time, I don't want to push newcomwers away, the chance to compete in a big event is what draws most of them in. Telling them there robot is shit and they need to pay $200 before joining the "big boys" is a big, rude slap in the face.


Mhm I agreee Laughing Im just in it for the fun... Does vic have a entry fee thing atm?
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 5:54 pm 
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marto
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Location: Brisbane, QLD


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Vic doesn't have any events period because no one wants to organise.

I know $200 is a lot but odds are if you build a good robot you will get a significant portion back. If you build something which half assed or dont show then it causes issues for the person trying to organise the event. Which is a really big problem.

This is really talking about a public event not just your backyard style event which to some extent has to be a bit of a show. If you don't please the crowd/fullfill the requirements of the people funding you then its your head on the chopping block.
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 6:16 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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vic doesnt have any events at this time, (despite having a public arena just sitting there waiting for people to use it), so no, there are no entry fees because there arent any events.

Mainly because it seems noone is prepared to organise an event for just a few reliable participants and a heap of "I might show if I get it together in time"ers.

This might change if Roboteers are prepared to commit and think about a system as proposed.
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 6:21 pm 
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Nick
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Joined: 16 Jun 2004
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Location: Sydney, NSW


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Perhaps the entry fee could be made more equitable by having a base fee and then an optional donation? That could go several ways:

The prize pool could be weighted so that larger donations brought back a larger % of the prize pool - as long as you win. This would basically be betting on yourself and would motivate a strong team to make a larger payment while beginners can pay the basic cost of holding the event.

The other option for donations would be to get extra services; the best pit table, extra passes, etc. Either way, that might add money to the event, which an't be a bad thing.

Post Sun May 29, 2011 6:31 pm 
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dyrodium
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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So, with the only intact portable featherweight arena sitting mostly unused at sidetracked, if we were to commit early with entry fees, and the numbers are high enough... might there be a robowars 2012? Twisted Evil
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 6:47 pm 
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Vignesh



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 305
Location: Dandenong North Victoria


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Actually i hope so.... So if we were to implement this in Vic i propose that we do the system brett said with something over $50 (some people are kinda broke) all they would have to do is get their bot in there all working, but not a junk bot and get a portion of their money back every match. I also wonder, what if you somehow burnt your Speed controller while in a battle? Does that mean you've lost all your money? Its kind of a gamble.

We could trial this at the next event and if its all just dodgy and not working right we could just refund and find another way... Just sayin

And if it does mean that we get a Robowars 2012, Im all for it Smile

And also having a day like 2-3 weeks before the real even where you can test, and work you bugs (kind of like a pre event where we can hold small fights) and see if it is worth going to the real event
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 8:06 pm 
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RogueTwoRobots



Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Irvine, Scotland


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None of this applies to me being from across the water, but it's an interesting idea nonetheless. At the most recent event I attended, we had to pay a £15 (~$23) entry fee up front before we could access the sign-up sheet to submit our robot details. It definitely encourages you to commit to the event and get your machine built. Admittedly, I had to pull one of my machines out of the main competition as I couldn't get it ready on time. That was poor time management on my part, but thankfully I had another machine running and we have a large enough turn-out of robots that it doesn't affect the show too much. But if it had cost a lot more to enter the event, I most likely would have managed my time better and got the robot finished so that I wasn't losing money.

One issue I have about these proposals though:

The EO gets, say, 30 robot signed up with an entry fee of $100 each. That's $3000 in the 'bank' of which a substantial amount would have to go towards putting on a large-ish show (lights, sound effects etc) in order for the EO to fulfil their end of the agreement.
Even though a certain number of robots will always be eliminated at different stages, if they all produce good fights, the majority of robots will receive a large percentage of their fee back.
Just as an example, if all roboteers receive, say, 75% of their fee back, that's $2250 going back to the robot builders. To avoid being out of pocket, that means the show would had to have cost just $750, which doesn't sound particularly large for the number of robots competing and for meeting roboteers' expectations.

My figures might be off, but I guess what I'm getting at is that surely the money from entry fees can't go purely towards putting on a good-looking show that also refunds a large percentage of that money to the roboteers without the EO being left out-of-pocket or have money coming in from elsewhere?

Then again, I might just have missed something Smile
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 8:49 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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I dont think theres enough active builders in Vic at the moment for me to consider organising a big Robowars.

Just pulling a figure out of the air, I'd want to see something like 15 bots pre-entered at about $200 each to make organising a Robowars worthwhile at its usual scale of production. or 25 robots at $120...

Another EO might be prepared to go with a smaller event for a lower $ figure or less bots - Pre Commitment might encourage someone else to have a go at EO'ing, since I would really rather compete than organise.

That pledgie page is terrible, nowhere does it actually say what pledgie does, how people use it, do they hold funds for you or anything. If its just a list of people who have promised to pay later, then thats of very little help.

The Sidetracked arena is available to other EO's if you can be professional about its use. (see elsewhere on the forum for sidetracked arena use conditions)

@Vignesh, yes, if your ESC blows in fight 1 and you have no spare, you lose your entry fee.. Why your robot breaks is not the EO's problem. You could equally as easily say "but this hand-whittled plastic flangewhatsit broke and I cant get another one.. waah, not fair" - you keep spare parts to keep fighting, or you lose.

and Im talking pre-entry fees 2 or 3 *months* before a big event, not weeks. If you want a big show, it takes time to organise and get the word out, and you cant start doing that until you are sure you have enough entrants for an event, so you cant decide "if its worth going or not" a couple of weeks beforehand sorry.

@Aaron, you missed the bit I said about *if* its an eliminator, then the EO could reward people for doing filler fights.. but it seems round robins are more popular than eliminators anyway, so its probably not an issue
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 8:50 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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@terminal: The return/fight percentage numbers would have to be adjusted to suit the production budget naturally.

The "good fight" level is a slightly sticky issue, since the Judges hypothetically *could* affect payouts simply by assigning lower scores to fights to keep them under the "good fight" level. But this could be worked out by having judges trusted or elected or something by the builder community.

The EO can also collect door tickets or donations, and having a lot of good fights, while it might reduce kept-entry-fee levels, is good for the EO in having a good show that keep crowds coming back..
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 8:58 pm 
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marto
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Location: Brisbane, QLD


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Put me down for 2 @ $200
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 9:00 pm 
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Vignesh



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
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Location: Dandenong North Victoria


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Hey im fine with months. Thing is, i dont even think we have enouch bots in Vic to implement this.
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Post Sun May 29, 2011 9:01 pm 
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