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Spockie-Tech
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Thats a good point actually.. Science *is* a form of faith in itself.. very few of us have every performed any of the actions necessary to verify even the most basic of scientific principles. for ourself.

Supposedly, prior to Galilean times, it was assumed by nearly everyone that heavier objects would fall faster than light ones would. However it took thousands of years before anyone actually got around to dropping some items of different weight and noticing that they actually all fell at the same speed (assuming similair air resistance properties). So much for common sense.

I understand the behaviour of an intangible particle called an electron better than your average joe does.. I've studied its characteristics and how to make it do what I want for over 20 years. I think I'm pretty good when it comes to the "science" of "electronics". But do I know exactly *why* these positives and negative particles (opposites) attract each other ? Nope, it "just is" and not understanding why, I have to rely on faith that it will continue to be so.. I dont like it, but until I or someone figures out why, I will just have to keep trusting that it does.

In that respect, my "science" is founded upon faith, just as much as that of any religion in the world.

But, the main difference between science and religion as far as I am concerned, is that I can demonstrate to anyone, anytime that opposites attract, and electrons will flow if you produce an excess of them in any manner. I can even tell someone how to do it, and they can follow my instructions and prove it for themselves.

Noone has yet been able to provide any method in which I can do "xxx" and *prove* to myself that <deity> exists or not, so while I do not say it is definite that they do or do not, they get put in the same box as UFO's, Elvis, Honest Politicians, and Flying Pigs.

I agree that the big-bang theory, while logically self consistent also requires some pretty hefty leaps of faith as far I understand it at present. Again, I think this is one of the things that may be cleared up when we stop acting like a horse with blinkers on and insisting that time is an invariable linear dimension.

There have been some very interesting hypthesis about multi dimensional time that apparently clear up a lot of the paradoxes like energy appearing out of nowhere and quantum inseperability.. The problem is coming up with a theory that is proveable to people who are embedded within the thing trying to be measured. Try explaining water to a fish.. Its kind of hard to conceive of something outside of what you have lived your whole life within.
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Post Sun Oct 10, 2004 8:42 pm 
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original_carnage
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Then there is the theory that humans are merely germs infecting a cell (we call earth) inside of a larger body (we call the universe). One day we may be wiped out (we call war/pestilience - the body we inhabit calls its immune system) or disappear down a black hole (any guesses what the body we inhabit calls this "black hole"). Laughing
Before you completely disallow this possibility, stop and think of your own body. Your own cells are constantly under attack from germs which get wiped out in seconds by your immune system. These same germs may have evolved to the nuclear age (in their own time line) and killed themselves (according to their own history). AND these same germs are too infected by other germs yet again...

Religion. Rolling Eyes whether you believe in some deity (or collection of deities).... please remember that most of the wars and colonised lands/oppression that has occurred throughout mankinds history has happened because of (if not in the name of) religion. Ram your belief down someones throat and it will always cause arguments, fights then eventually (if allowed to continue) war.
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Post Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:46 am 
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andrew



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Yeah thats what i really dont like.

The goobers who start this stuff by ramming ot down peoples throats.

My own opinion and basically all of my churches opinion is that its a personal choice that the person must chosse themselves.

Thats liek Jahova's witness, They last about 10 seconds at my door before they get it slammed in their face.

Its people that do that that start conflicts and give teh rest a bad wrap.

Watch a american news show and watch they barely talk. They argue always forcing one persons belief down teh others throat.

Its so BS.
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Post Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:23 pm 
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timmeh
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quote:
Originally posted by prong:
the question i want to know is can jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself cannot eat it?


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA x 100
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Post Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:20 pm 
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Philip
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I wasn't saying science is a religion in the above post, but rather the many and varied evolutionary theories. The law of conservation of energy contradicts the theory of evolution. You should disgaurd or modify the theory when it contradicts a law.

I can offer no direct proof of God's existance. I do see things such as the common bassis of life in creation and interpret that observation as pointing to a common creator. Those old enough may remember the '70s doco In search of Noah's Ark where they found a boat on top of a mountain that used to be called Arrarat. I see that as evidence to back up the account of Noah's flood in the Bible. The need for rapid burial to make fosils would also point to the need for an event such as the flood. There are sediment layers all over the world such as would be caused by a global flood as described in Genises.

I see people being healed of incurable diseases when they are prayed for. How can this be explaned without God's power?

I simply observe the indirect evidence and make a theory. I have no direct proof of God's existence.

I do not wish to push my veiws on anyone. I am happy to keep talking about this if others wish to. I am happy to stop talking about this if noone wishes to talk about this.

Post Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:38 am 
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andrew



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Thats really cool Phillip.

There has been a good number of times in my life where things had happened which leads straight to God and no other explanation. Including one time at a church camp when i saw a vision of a figure when i woke up in the middle of the night.

Now u cant way thats purely science.
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Post Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:54 am 
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Valen
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simpelst answer is often the best
whats more likley
some god got pissed off at the inhabitants of a small ball of rock orbiting a bog standard sun in the unfashonablle arm of an above average galaxy (in size) and decided to flood the entire thing but told some random bloke to collect 2 of all the billions of species of animal (including those from say australia that wasnt known about) then all those animals bred up to their current levels in 2000 years.

or

some guy built a boat up a mountain as a bit of a laugh.
look at the giant cow in rural victoria and i think you have your answer.

re the ark story
for humans you need a minimum number of 16 males and 12 females i believe in order not to have inbreeding, so adam and eve dont work, neither do those on the ark, you only have to go to america to see what happens when people have too many babies to their sisters (or the royal familys of europe)

how does conservation of energy argue with evolution?
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Post Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:39 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip Taylor:
I wasn't saying science is a religion in the above post, but rather the many and varied evolutionary theories. The law of conservation of energy contradicts the theory of evolution. You should disgaurd or modify the theory when it contradicts a law.


Ah yes, I have encountered this sort of argument from "Creation Scientists" before (not saying that you are one Philip, just that its a technique they often use).. Scientist A disagrees with Scientist B on the exact details of the theory of evolution, therefore the whole concept is invalid and the creationsists are automatically right, after all, they have a book that tells us how it really happened. Its sort of the equivalent of saying "A does not equal B Therefore C is correct"

Can you explain how you believe the Theory of Evolution contradicts the law of conservation of energy ?

In most cases I have seen, the dis-proof of conservation of energy is a result of the observer failing to take into account the larger system that is the external source of energy that appears to be "free" within the smaller system. Niagra Falls powering Electric Generators looks like "free" energy, as long as you ignore the giga-terawatt nuclear reactor we call the sun that is powering the evaporation of water and moving it from places of low gravitational potential back up to the top of the hills so we can extract that energy over and over again.

> I can offer no direct proof of God's existance. I do see things
> such as the common bassis of life in creation and interpret that
> observation as pointing to a common creator.

I agree that there are many documented phenomena in existance that suggest the existance of another plane/dimension/reality that we cannot presently perceive.. The patterns that occurs repeatedly in nature, and the intriguing mathematical relationships that crop up in the physical laws and constants that define our world suggest that they are related on a deeper level..

Much like the inctricate patterns of a graphics fractal all stem from a reiterate loop passed through a simple equation like Z=> Z^2 +C. Run some numbers through this loop and you get

.

Does that prove that God is really a set of equations ?

> I see people being healed of incurable diseases when they
> are prayed for. How can this be explaned without God's power?

Many ways.. the ability of the human mind to influence reality in ways more subtle than our instruments can detect is well documented. I suspect such influence occurs beneath the level of the uncertainty principle by a bending of the laws of probability according to the expectations of the observer. If reality is defined as the collapsing of a quantum probability wave at the moment of observation, then it is not inconcievable that the mind state of the observer can affect the outcome of that collapse.

Such magic is not confined purely to those who believe in "God" and pray to right diety.. Satanists, Pagans, Witches, Bhuddists, Primitive Fire Walkers who worship a rock and scientists have all shown this ability on occasion. The key is in the intensity of the belief in the power of ones mind, not the choice of which religion to adhere to.

These type of occurences prove to me that there is more to how the world works than we presently understand.. they do not prove to me that there is a big bearded guy up in the sky who really gives a shit whether a semi-evolved tribe of primates all subscribe to his fan club or not.

> I simply observe the indirect evidence and make a theory.
> I have no direct proof of God's existence.

Observation of occurences and the formulation of a theory is fine, but unless the theory makes predictions that can be practically tested and verified or disproved, then it isnt a theory, its a fantasy.

I can "theorise" that somewhere out there in the universe is a planet populated by super beings who have a strange vulnerability to a substance called Kryptonite.. but because this offers no way to prove whether it is true or not, it does not deserve to be called a Theory, its just a story.

> I do not wish to push my veiws on anyone. I am happy to keep talking
> about this if others wish to. I am happy to stop talking about this if
> noone wishes to talk about this.

Ditto, Intelligent discourse on why people believe in this or that is a good way of learning things, unfortunately, in my experience, it usually doesnt take long before one runs into a belief on the part of one party or the other that cant be supported by anything more than "its just what I believe", and things usually get ugly around then, because not many people enjoy having their unsupported beliefs exposed as such, so they get all defensive, irrational and accusatory.

If you're happy to keep following this path and can remain civil and polite, I dont mind the occasional theological debate either.. Cool
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Last edited by Spockie-Tech on Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:59 pm 
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mytqik



Joined: 26 Jun 2004
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I read somewhere 2 great quotes:

"Religion is a tool used by the minority to control the majority"

"Religion is the tool that the un-educated use to explain the un-explainable"

I beleive that both are true.

Post Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:17 pm 
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Philip
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If I recall correctly (it has been 20 years since I left school) the law of conservation of energy goes along the lines of In a closed system, without the input of energy, things go from a state of higher order to a state of lower order. Another that comes to mind is, Energy is neither created or destroyed it only changes from one form to another. The word entropy should go in there somewhere to deal with wasted energy.

There needs to be some input of energy to start the whole thing. There was nothing and it exploded to make energy just doesn't work with the above. You cannot get mass from nothing. If we skip over this little point, we move on to things evolving from a lower order to a higher oder by absorbing random energy from the sun. This reminds me of a Mavel Comic style of story with a radioactive spider biting someone to turn him into a super hero. Marauder absorbed some random enery from Annihilation. It might surprise you to find that it moved to a lower state of order.

"Observation of occurences and the formulation of a theory is fine, but unless the theory makes predictions that can be practically tested and verified or disproved, then it isnt a theory, its a fantasy." Can any of the evolutionary theories be tested and verified? A theory would become a law if it could be tested and verified. A theory is an idea based on observation IIRC. Could a schoolie confirm this definition, please? You would need to have some observations to lead you to a theory regarding your planet.

I have heard the guys from Creation Science speak. I agree with alot of what they said. I am not involved with Creation Science, however. I was not saying that the evolutioary theories contradict one another and are therefore untrue. I was just lumping them together for convenience. Do you have any particular evolution theory that you think is possible. I have read that you don't think that the big bang is quite there.

That is one of my longer posts. I must stop talking to you, Brett, or I will pick up your mega posting traits.

Post Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:37 pm 
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Valen
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evolution in practise
inceticide resistant bugs
antibiotic resistant bacteria

that is evolution in its purest form (and demonstrating why biodiversity in things we want to survive is important)

conservation of energy as i know it goes along the lines of energy can neither be created or destroyed only converted and distributed.

that whole something from nothing thing has actually been demonstrated called "virtual particles" which is getting into some heavy duty quantum physics, short version is thats what all those zero point energy people are talking about (perhaps the universes only real free lunch) and from what ive read has been confirmed to exist. theory goes a bit like this. there is a small but finite possibility of particles just popping into existance matter and energy are basically the same thing so its possible to have electromagnetic radiation just "happen" too, you get 2 conductive plates and put them very close togther, now the wavelength of the fields that can "just happen" outside the 2 plates is say infinite, but the wavelengths in-between the plates is limited and thus less. so you have lots of these (possibly existant) waves on one side of the plates and fewer on the other. this leads to a *real measurable force* on the plates zero point energy however being incredibly low powered there *isnt much* but dont let that stop you. There ya go, something from nothing, the universes own free lunch and you can do it with your own photo-lithography micromachining setup.

a perfictly closed system wont move from high to low order, any energy disipated by the objects in the system is still within the system, thus the systems energy is the same, the entropy (distribution of energy) within the system will decrease however (ie more distributed).
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Post Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:00 pm 
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Philip
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You are right, Valen. I am aware of organisms developing resistance to a pesticide or herbicide. I grow palms for a living. Those organisms that have a natural resistance to the toxin used live and the resulting population carry their genetic material.

We also choose charicteristics in plants and animals and selectively breed them to enhance that charicteristic. We can push dogs from fox terriers to great danes.

I believe in evolution within a species. I don't believe in the birth defect that leads to a benificial mutation into a different species type of evolution.

What is the origon of virtual particles?

Post Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:28 am 
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Valen
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its not a "birth defect" typically
most evolution is "slow"
toxin resistance and the like comes about because the inscets when born have a different genetic makeup and thus grow differently. a fully grown animal cant "evolve" otherwise the experiment where they cut the tails off mice would have worked.

(that theory went giraffes have long necks because they keep stretching to reach food, because they kept doing that their offspring had longer necks. so if you cut the tail off a mouse then that charicteristic will be passed on to their offspring too) the only time that the genetics of a whole organism can change (generally) is at conception.

thats the whole point of virtual particles, they "just happen" there is a minescule but finite probbibility that a bowling ball could just spring into existance in your lap this very second, obviously that example is taken to the extreme, it wouldnt happen in any number of lifetimes of the universe. but a lone hydrogen atom has a far higher (though still minescule) chance of "just happening" and a single photon has a still higher chance.
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Post Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:18 am 
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Waddy the phoenix



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well i have 2 theories

1) some one that is stoned could probably understand this all better than me

2) "every action has an equal and opisoit reaction" so that would meen that there would have to be atleast double the energy around every where so for the big bang to work there would have to be 2 big bangs and then 4 then 8... a ripple effect it will constantly bounce around untill the all the still water is in movement...

^does any one know what i meen and would that be possible i dont know if i used the right selection of words im just tyred and hot... Confused
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Post Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:38 pm 
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chris



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quote:
Originally posted by Valen:
simpelst answer is often the best

re the ark story
for humans you need a minimum number of 16 males and 12 females i believe in order not to have inbreeding, so adam and eve dont work




Either that or adam was a machine Smile

Sorry about that...
This seems to be a good time to share my view on religion as my little grey cells have been working all afternoon reading all the posts up until now:

Although My family and to a lesser extent, myself are religious I find that there is too little existing evidence to commit myself to a story that is thousands of years old and may have lost all sence of truth.

The biggest aexample of this is the unanswered question of what happens when we die. Now according to the Bible there are two places you can go, heaven if you lived a peaceful life and hell, if you lived a restless, cruel life.

This is the area where I am most skepticle, (and the area I think will create the most discussion, just wanna keep things interesting!) this is why:

According to the bible, God loves the sinners, so why would he send sinners to hell.

Another thought worth talking about is:
How are we supposed to know that there really is a heaven or a hell, an all powerful god or a Devil or anything else related to the death theory that is put foward in the pages of the Bible.

Dont get me wrong, its not that I dont believe in life after death but I am skeptical, and that brings me to my final thoughts on death:
If there is no such thing as heaven or hell then what happens after death, do we dissapear and how is disappear defined in this situation, Do we pass out of all existance (a very hard to explain thought cause there has to be something, doesnt there?), or do we become reincarnated (which is apparently impossible because right now there are more people alive than have ever lived before, so maybe an animal?) or do we pass in to an alternate reality like a parralel universe?
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Post Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:33 pm 
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