www.robowars.org

RoboWars Australia Forum Index -> Off-Topic

FlameWars - Religion
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 30, 31, 32, 33, 34  Next

Post new topic   Reply to topic
  Author    Thread
Philip
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 3842
Location: Queensland near Brisbane


 Reply with quote  


quote:
It is the leaders of your admired organisation that assume they have the right to control the perceptions of people who are not adherents to their belief system that get the big finger from me.
I have never gone to any church that has tried to control people. Much less have any interest in censorship of the internet or anything else. None. Zero. Not one church to which I have attended has ever tried to enact or change any law. They have not been involved in any political lobbying. They have not been involved in any political organisation. I have never even seen as much as a circulated petition. It is a non issue.

I, personally, am against government being involved in my day to day life. Governments generally wreck anything they touch.

I have never put as a first choice any of the political parties represented by the senators listed above in your google search.

I do not want government censorship of the internet. You have no argument with me or with any church I have attended.

If you don't mind one more statement about ecclesiology, I think smaller churches would be a good idea. Specifically house churches.

@ Valen. Right now we teach "unsubstantiated, just-so stories" in biology according to evolutionist Richard Lewontin. So, using your logic, we can teach anything as history.
_________________
So even the rain that falls isn't actually going to fill our dams and our river systems

Post Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:24 am 
 View user's profile Send private message
Valen
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 4436
Location: Sydney


 Reply with quote  

you misunderstand the quote
his "just so stories" is talking about some finer details of the process, the basic idea is the same, his issue is saying "x is because of y" rather than "x happened and it was good".

Evolution is a testable falsifiable theory, one which is probably missing great chunks of detail. Science means we are allowed to fill in that detail and in 100 years we will be teaching our children about the great supernova 2 billion years ago that sprayed mutating radiation over the planet causing an explosion of diversification, or something else entirely. Point is science changes based on what we understand, and can prove.

Fiction is made up words in a book. Really good fiction uses the world around us as a base then builds on it to achieve the authors goals. Only the author is allowed to change fiction, there is no requirement to be able to test the changes to fiction. (also known as the Anderson-"Phantom menace sucks" postulate)

If you can't test it its not science.

The parts of evolution we can test hold up, as such it is science.

Evolution is a model. All models are wrong, some are useful.
_________________
Mechanical engineers build weapons, civil engineers build targets

Post Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:02 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
miles&Jules
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 3973
Location: ipswich QLD


 Reply with quote  

No miracles in science..thankfully.... Except maybe the big bang.
_________________
Miles Blow - Julie Pitts
www.mulesfilm.com.au
www.wombokforest.com.au

-Pickasso- Vivid Sportsman champion 2015

Post Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:58 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Philip
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 3842
Location: Queensland near Brisbane


 Reply with quote  

I would be interested in the parts of the GTE that are testable and falsifiable. That is, an increase of never before seen information arising from mutation or other natural means. Not loss of information or transfer of pre-existing information. Nor natural variation within a species, eg beak length variation.

Don't worry too much about the Big Bang, Miles. It is being deserted by scientists at the moment and will, no doubt, be replaced by another naturalistic source.
_________________
So even the rain that falls isn't actually going to fill our dams and our river systems

Post Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:24 am 
 View user's profile Send private message
Knightrous
Site Admin


Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 8511
Location: NSW


 Reply with quote  


_________________
https://www.halfdonethings.com/

Post Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:38 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message
seanet1310



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 1265
Location: Adelaide


 Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by Philip:


Religion is all about what man has to do. Christianity is all about what Christ has done. Religion is only good for people who want to feel guilty and hypocrites. Christianity is for everyone else.


Sorry Phil, Saw this image and had to post it. Personally I think your above post is complete B.S to make yourslef feel good and most religions can make it.

I know the image is not exactly what you said, but I have herd many A Christian say that 'Christianity is not a religion, it is a personal relationship with god and/or Jesus'






EDIT: Bonus content.
quote:
Originally posted by Knightrous:
Damn it, looks like putting Jedi as my religion wasn't enough to get me on the statistics Sad


Turns out I was wrong.
65000 Jedi, Even up from previous years .
30 times more Jedi then people who believe in Scientology.

Even the Wikkans are almost 4 times bigger then scientology (and they are a real belief)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-29/scientology-numbers-going-backwards/4101958
_________________
Remember to trust me, I am an Engineer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp8hvyjZWHs

Post Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:25 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Philip
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 3842
Location: Queensland near Brisbane


 Reply with quote  

You are entitled to your opinion. I was using the definitions contained in the quoted passage.

I do understand that people use the term religion in a different way. When people ask me if I am religious, I know what they are asking. When I am told that I don't seem religious, I think that is good.

G2356 θρησκεία threskeia (thrace-kei'-ah) n.
1. ceremonial observance

Paul contrasted religion with the promise made to the fathers. The whole idea of be good enough and earn a reward is absolutely opposed to grace. Grace (the promise made to the fathers) is undeserved, unmerited favour.

The criminal hanging on one of the crosses beside Jesus is a good example of undeserved, unmerited favour.

Matt 27:44 (ESV)
44) And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.

Luke 23:40-43 (ESV)
40) But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41) And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
42) And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43) And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The criminal did no religious observance, but received grace.
_________________
So even the rain that falls isn't actually going to fill our dams and our river systems

Post Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:30 am 
 View user's profile Send private message
seanet1310



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 1265
Location: Adelaide


 Reply with quote  

Just read 1 Kings 18.
Dam that god of the bible, seams to be very pro murder for anyone who does not follow you.

Good thing people do not follow the instructions of the bible. I would have been murdered a few thousand times by now.

Remember boys and girls, The god of the old testament is the same god as in the new. Just because he has bipolar with multi-personality disorders does not forgive the thousands of crimes against humanity.
_________________
Remember to trust me, I am an Engineer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp8hvyjZWHs

Post Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:50 am 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
seanet1310



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 1265
Location: Adelaide


 Reply with quote  

Phil.
Regarding your many points regarding Evolution being false, check out the following videos.
check out the following videos when you have a spare 20 minutes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_RXX7pntr8&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w57_P9DZJ4&feature=relmfu

Regrading your points of Carbon dating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APEpwkXatbY&feature=plcp

Remember: Science advances on its previous understanding to improve its picture, it is capable of adapting to what we learn unlike an old book (unless you re-translate it to get what you want)
Also the videos are not highly complex to be aimed at average people to help get the point across. There is even a version available for school children.

The man in question has written for year (16) in New Scientist and more can be found at the following links
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2010/mar/29/youtube-climate-change-scepticism
http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/peter-hadfield and http://www.atheistmedia.com/2010/08/who-is-potholer54.html


Enjoy boys and girls.
_________________
Remember to trust me, I am an Engineer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp8hvyjZWHs

Post Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:28 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Philip
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 3842
Location: Queensland near Brisbane


 Reply with quote  

Thanks Sean.

The gentleman in the video seems to equate survival of the fittest with arrival of the fittest. The fact of natural selection is not under question. Both sides also agree that variation occurs within a defined range, for example, height variation. It is the morphological change that is disputed, for example, invertebrates becoming vertebrates.

While the video showed a gradual progression of drawings from one morphology to another, the actual fossil record is not so helpful. Stephen Jay Gould wrote:
The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution. Stephen still believes strongly in evolution, but, due to the lack of transitional fossils, proposed Punctuated Equilibrium.

I was not disputing C14 dating. I was saying that we can detect C14 in the deepest layers. The presence of detectable C14 limits the maximum age to tens of thousands of years not millions or billions.

I hope that the video's presenter doesn't think that organic material is never found in dinosaur fossils. He could do with reading about Mary Higby Schweitzer's discovery.
_________________
So even the rain that falls isn't actually going to fill our dams and our river systems

Post Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:50 am 
 View user's profile Send private message
seanet1310



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 1265
Location: Adelaide


 Reply with quote  

Regarding the Carbon 14, Doesn't that have something to do with the natural chemical breakdown of Uranium and other similar natural phenomenon ?

Everything else, I do not have time to look up (so i will link you to a few things I have on super fast skim read)
transition between inverterbate and vertabate http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC211.html



As said in the video, Everything is a transitional state it just how you choose to define this is x while that is y. You cna not exect to find evidence of every minute change as fossils happens in such rare cases.

From memory the organic material is very rare amongst fossils and hey are very rare. The presenter I think was more making the argument you can not just pick one up and analyse it, for carbon 14 to do so without revealing it has been treated is even more deceptive as this introduces new variables not natural.

You say both sides agree that variation occures within a defined range. While you might. I have met a few Christians who do not belief that for any meaningful variance.
_________________
Remember to trust me, I am an Engineer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp8hvyjZWHs

Post Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:41 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
miles&Jules
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 3973
Location: ipswich QLD


 Reply with quote  

There is no evidence of the bible being a historical record. The miracles the....divine intervention, the miraculous births the existence of heaven and hell...(where are they?)

It could only be looked at as metaphor by any rational thinkers.......The only thing that can make people believe in it, word for word and as fact, would be if that rational thinker had been brainwashed with it teachings since child hood.

This is how religion has survived, sunday school and religious customs brainwashing childeren and etching religious propaganda into fertile minds.

What about homosexual people brought up in christian schooling?...they are told that the way their body naturally functions is against god will and they will go to hell...how ridiculous. In this way Jesus was prejudice when he wasn't preaching heterosexual love.

Aren't our brains evolved enough to question this book of contradictions ,falsehoods and prejudice ...oh and love?
_________________
Miles Blow - Julie Pitts
www.mulesfilm.com.au
www.wombokforest.com.au

-Pickasso- Vivid Sportsman champion 2015

Post Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:36 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Philip
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 3842
Location: Queensland near Brisbane


 Reply with quote  

Sean, C14 has a very short half life and is used to "date" items containing carbon. It is limited to tens of thousands of years. You will see in the Wikipedia article in the "Occurrence In fossil fuels" section, that C14 is found in coal and oil that is assumed to be much older. When the test results are inconsistent with the old age assumptions the assumptions win and the test results are discarded as being wrong.

Other types of radiometric dating give the vast "ages". As you mentioned, uranium-lead is one of these. This method is used in igneous rock. Fossils are found in sedimentary rock. Igneous rocks near by are sampled and their elements measured. We can measure the elements accurately. Then we assume the starting conditions of the rock and assume what has happened since the rock formed and interpret the result as a "date". If the date agrees with the assumed age of the fossil, the date is accepted as accurate. If the date disagrees with the assumed date of the fossil, the date is rejected.

Whenever rocks of known age are measured with this method, the dates from radiometric dating are much older than the observed dates. Such as, an eight year old sample from Mt St Hellens being dated at 1.7 Ma and 3 Ma.

The current age of the Earth is not actually from dating the Earth. It is from dating a metiorite. No, that is not a joke. Cut and paste from this page.

Most geological samples from Earth are unable to give a direct date of the formation of Earth from the solar nebula because Earth has undergone differentiation into the core, mantle, and crust, and this has then undergone a long history of mixing and unmixing of these sample reservoirs by plate tectonics, weathering and hydrothermal circulation.

Earth rocks are considered too inaccurate to give dates unless they agree with the uniformitarian assumptions.

I will look at the linked page in detail another day. This is already a mega-post.

I have heard the view that there are no missing links and humans are not even removed from monkeys. Other evolutionists disagree. Evolutionist Charles Darwin said in Origin of the Species:

Why is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory.

How do the Christians who don't believe in meaningful variance define the term? For example, according to the timeline of the Bible, humanity has diverged from three breading pairs within four and a half thousand years. We are different heights have different skin, hair and eye colour, for example. Is that meaningful variance?
_________________
So even the rain that falls isn't actually going to fill our dams and our river systems

Post Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:42 am 
 View user's profile Send private message
Philip
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 3842
Location: Queensland near Brisbane


 Reply with quote  

Miles, upon what do you base your statement that "[t]here is no evidence of the bible being a historical record." I have read that secular archaeologists use the historical sections of the Bible to help locate and date cities.

As for miracles such as the virgin birth, what precise evidence would you expect to find remaining? What test can we do now to test whether or not something happened in the past?

I grew up seeing healings and miracles. I have never had a problem with the miracles in the Bible. It would be difficult to comprehend if you have a different experience, I imagine.

It is true that our childhood teaching will shape the way we view the world around us. I was brought up a Bible believing Christian. I am biased towards the Bible. Equally, children are being taught atheist teachings. They are biased against the Bible. The question is not whether or not we are biased, but do we acknowledge our bias and try to see things from another person's perspective.

I was surprised by the previously quoted survey results on the ratios of people who believe in the GTE vs the people who believe in creation. We are all taught that the GTE (or at least the general vibe of the GTE) is true as children in school and in popular culture.

All people, homosexual and heterosexual, go to Heaven based only on belief in Jesus. In biblical terms, we are saved by grace through faith.

Eph 2:8-9 (ESV)
8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
_________________
So even the rain that falls isn't actually going to fill our dams and our river systems

Post Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:31 am 
 View user's profile Send private message
miles&Jules
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 3973
Location: ipswich QLD


 Reply with quote  

Hi Phillip.
I am curious,...What miracles did you witnessed growing up? And more importantly have you witnessed any as an adult?

As far as I am aware ....there is no evidence of anything supernatural ever happening?

Medical miracles are never things that couldn't have got better through natural healing....they are never things like an amputee growing a new leg.

What evidence would i expect to see of a virgin birth? Well evidence of Mary not being able to conceive ...for starters. Like if she was 100 years old when she had Jesus...you would have to concede that that is very unusual or miraculous.

Why did God pick a married woman to have this virgin birth? ...who had plenty of other kids that weren't gods children. For rational thinkers its a ridiculous position that is impossible to believe in.

But if I was a god I would leave some concrete irrefutable proof behind...Think of all the wars that would have stopped because of hard evidence. The bible is written by contributors who were born years after jesus was killed. Yet christians believe it as fact that sounds like brainwashing to me. Newspapers make mistakes and get stories wrong all the time....why would the bible be a historical record when its authors were never held to account.

Homosexual prejudice....
Thou shalt not commit adultery. If homosexuals cant be married then there relationship would be classed as adultery. Christians hate the idea of same sex couples being married. that is discrimination.

historically ....i like what wikipedia says .....

The historicity of the bible is the question of the bible's role as a guide to the history of ancient Israel. All modern scholars recognise that using the bible to explain the biblical world is at best incomplete and at worst circular.

Dont forget atheists can go to heaven to....Cardinal Pell said that....he also doesn't believe in human induced global warming.....So he has ticked the box of most conservatives, for believing in miracles( for which there is no evidence) but rejects the evidence of the world scientific community that the globe is warming faster than it should be.

I guess we will never get a consensus on this forum between believers and rational thinkers....but it is always fun discussing these topics.

Miles
_________________
Miles Blow - Julie Pitts
www.mulesfilm.com.au
www.wombokforest.com.au

-Pickasso- Vivid Sportsman champion 2015

Post Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:15 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
  Display posts from previous:      

Forum Jump:
Jump to:  

Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 31 of 34

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 30, 31, 32, 33, 34  Next

Forum Rules:
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 

Last Thread | Next Thread  >
Powered by phpBB: © 2001 phpBB Group
millenniumFalcon Template By Vereor.