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Knightrous
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
We are all taught that the GTE (or at least the general vibe of the GTE) is true as children in school and in popular culture.


The GTE is taught as a theory, not as solid, irrefutable truth/law (unlike the Bible). There are gap in the GTE at the moment and they will be filled in or corrected as the theory evolves (pun!) and we understand more about it. It may well be proven wrong in the future as more evidence arises. Maybe this was a little different when you went to school? When I went to school, theories were theories and especially in the science department, my teachers encouraged me to challenge those theories if I wanted (or could).

As for evidence in evolution, have a read through the E. coli long-term evolution experiment led by Richard Lenski. IMO, this gives more supportive evidence to evolution then a crazy story about Noah building a boat to hold 2 of every animal... (Sean's rambling of numbers several pages had some sensible figures that counter the word of the Bible on that story).

quote:
Originally posted by miles&Jules:
I guess we will never get a consensus on this forum between believers and rational thinkers....but it is always fun discussing these topics.

I don't think the discussion of this kind of topic should ever be created with the intention of having a consensus or conclusion (IMO, it's impossible).
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Post Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:21 pm 
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Valen
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The fundamental problem is he can argue with us, as we accept evidence and are open to changing our minds.
We cannot argue with him as he "knows" he is right regardless of the evidence and will cherry pick/strawman/anything else to make the evidence suit his belief.


I still haven't heard any "evidence" to refute my argument.
axioms are that
1) god is all powerfull
2) god is all knowing
3) we are flawed creatures

If god is all knowing, then god knows the future.
If god is all powerfull, then god has the ability to make any future he decides.

Given that, there is no free will, and we are just puppets in his play.

Either god is limited and the bible is wrong, or god is a sadistic bastard.
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Post Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:33 pm 
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seanet1310



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quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
Sean, C14 has a very short half life and is used to "date" items containing carbon. It is limited to tens of thousands of years. You will see in the Wikipedia article in the "Occurrence In fossil fuels" section, that C14 is found in coal and oil that is assumed to be much older. When the test results are inconsistent with the old age assumptions the assumptions win and the test results are discarded as being wrong.


Did you read your link at all? (Also, Wikipedia is not the most accurate of sources)

Let me help you out

quote:
In fossil fuels
Most man-made chemicals are made of fossil fuels, such as petroleum or coal, in which the carbon-14 should have long since decayed. However, such deposits often contain trace amounts of carbon-14 (varying significantly, but ranging up to 1% the ratio found in living organisms, a concentration comparable to an apparent age of 40,000).[17] This may indicate possible contamination by small amounts of bacteria, underground sources of radiation causing the 14N(n,p) 14C reaction, direct uranium decay (although reported measured ratios of 14C/U in uranium-bearing ores[18] would imply roughly 1 uranium atom for every two carbon atoms in order to cause the 14C/12C ratio, measured to be on the order of 10−15), or other unknown secondary sources of carbon-14 production. Presence of carbon-14 in the isotopic signature of a sample of carbonaceous material possibly indicates its contamination by biogenic sources or the decay of radioactive material in surrounding geologic strata. In connection with building the Borexino solar neutrino observatory, petroleum feedstock (for synthesizing the primary scintillant) was obtained with low 14C content. In the Borexino Counting Test Facility, a 14C/12C ratio of 1.94x10−18 was determined;[19] probable reactions responsible for varied levels of 14C in different petroleum reservoirs, and the lower 14C levels in methane, have been discussed by Bonvicini et al.


At no point did it mention results just being discarded. It presents potential reasons why.
One test is not good for everything as I am sure you know, In a similar way the videos a few days back mention carbon dating can not be used for fish.

quote:
Originally posted by Philip:

While the video showed a gradual progression of drawings from one morphology to another, the actual fossil record is not so helpful. Stephen Jay Gould wrote:
The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution. Stephen still believes strongly in evolution, but, due to the lack of transitional fossils, proposed Punctuated Equilibrium.



Have a read of the website
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part1-3.html

Even has some information about punctuated equilibrium for you. punctuated equilibrium still supports Evolution over the less then holy bible BTW.

You like Stephen Jay Gould quotes. Well here is one for you.

quote:
Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact


quote:
And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered
Website.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

If you feel like educating yourself on evolution beyond quote mines from http://www.answersingenesis.org
check out http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

OFF topic: But IMHO, http://www.answersingenesis.org is one of the most embarrassing things ever to come out of Australia?

quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
Miles, upon what do you base your statement that "[t]here is no evidence of the bible being a historical record." I have read that secular archaeologists use the historical sections of the Bible to help locate and date cities.



You know what they say, you have to put a little bit of truth in every lie. They did have to trick people a few hundred years after the fact in some situations.

i remember seeing a documentary that Nazareth did not even exist when jesus was meant to be born there. A quick wiki research seams to support this. Got to love that highly accuate historical record :S (If it did exist, indications are it was extremely tiny and not mentioned in anything non bible for hundreds of years)

quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
I am biased towards the Bible. Equally, children are being taught atheist teachings. They are biased against the Bible. The question is not whether or not we are biased, but do we acknowledge our bias and try to see things from another person's perspective.


Good thing, most atheists atm where raised religious of one way or another, Thus have no such bias to worr about.

quote:
Originally posted by Philip:

All people, homosexual and heterosexual, go to Heaven based only on belief in Jesus. In biblical terms, we are saved by grace through faith.


Jude 1:7:
"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."


Last time I checked. Jude was NT post JESUS. forget your bible facts there phil?

also
In Romans 1:26-27, the Apostle Paul is very specific:
"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
henever rocks of known age are measured with this method, the dates from radiometric dating are much older than the observed dates. Such as, an eight year old sample from Mt St Hellens being dated at 1.7 Ma and 3 Ma.



I am lazy, Have a read of this. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mtsthelens.html


quote:
Originally posted by Phillip:

I have heard the view that there are no missing links and humans are not even removed from monkeys. Other evolutionists disagree. Evolutionist Charles Darwin said in Origin of the Species:


Hard to believe I know, But Science unlike the bible updates its self and does not take what one person said as fact forever and a day. We know Darwin got some things correct and many things wrong now.


quote:
Originally posted by Phillip:

How do the Christians who don't believe in meaningful variance define the term? For example, according to the timeline of the Bible, humanity has diverged from three breading pairs within four and a half thousand years. We are different heights have different skin, hair and eye colour, for example. Is that meaningful variance?



No idea, The wonders of the evolved human mind who is biggoted and close minded from an old mistranslated, highly edited book written by primitive (even for their time) humans


[quote="Phillip:]
grew up seeing healings and miracles. I have never had a problem with the miracles in the Bible. It would be difficult to comprehend if you have a different experience, I imagine.
[/quote]

It is interesting, no study I know have has ever determined Christians who believe live longer, healthier, more capable, recover quicker or anything else you would expect from a miracle. By what you say, they seam to be common place in religious areas and inferred that Myles had not experienced miracles because he is not religious. Interesting isn't it.





quote:
Originally posted by Philip:


Eph 2:8-9 (ESV)
Cool For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Does this mean if I have 100% faith that Jesus and God exist as does heaven even if I am the worlds biggest child murderer (well second, I could never catch God) who enjoyed doing unspeakable things to thousands of people I would get into heaven as I had faith and did not boast? At the same time an Atheist (or Hindu etc) who rescued 10 children when a bus ended up in a river, donated a kidney to a stranger who was about to die, has personally built a school, well and taught faming techniques in africa and has always attempted to do right by humans would go to hell?
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Post Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:15 pm 
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miles&Jules
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....more good common sense rational thinking news ...the girl guides have ditched their oath of allegiance to the queen and god and taken the word obedience out to...great, now we just need the scouts to do the same!
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Post Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:24 am 
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Philip
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"I guess we will never get a consensus on this forum ... " We are all agreed. There will be no consensus.

I don't expect to change my mind. I assume that no one else will change their mind. I am interested in why people think what they think.
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Post Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:33 am 
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Philip
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Miles, the sorts of things I witnessed were mainly the normal ones. I have never seen an amputated limb regrow. That would be cool.

The healings I have seen are aches and pains going away, joints that don't move coming free, people who couldn't walk without a stick being able to walk and run. Lots of people with deaf ears getting back their hearing. I also saw some of the less common ones, people getting out of wheel chairs and blind people getting back their sight. These were all healed straight away.

I have hurt my back many times from lifting too heavy items. I have had back spasms prayed for and had them go instantly many times.

You do know that Mary and Joseph weren't married, they were engaged, don't you? If she was 100 years old and got pregnant, what evidence would you expect to find?

"The bible [sic] is written by contributors who were born years after jesus [sic] was killed." Actually, the NT contributors were all alive at the time of Jesus. Mathew, John and Peter were among the twelve disciples. James and Jude were possibly Joseph and Mary's sons. Mark is thought to have written his gospel in conjunction with Peter. You will see that Paul was an adult early in the book of Acts directly after crucifixion. Luke travelled with Peter and Paul. The unnamed author of Hebrews must have written before the destruction of the temple in AD70. You might be surprised by the level of textual criticism that has gone on for thousands of years.

I will leave Cardinal Pell to answer for himself. I will stick with what the Bible says.
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Post Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:07 am 
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miles&Jules
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So Jesus was a bastard? This is getting better.I thought the church didn't like them?

Those aliments you saw must be attributed to miracles. You got a strong case there.

The 100 year old Mary would be miraculous..... but it wouldn't be as far fetched as the earth being made in 6 days.... in the dark to. he he
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Post Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:32 am 
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Valen
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That's the point, as a scientist if there were compelling evidence for god then I would change my mind. If we discover aliens you have to go and find new meaning in 2000 year old words for that whole good created man in his own image thing. That's what irritates me the most. The book its true they say but you have to interpret it. The book doesn't say anything about dinosaurs, so come up with some magic to explain it. Its a retcon and a bad one at that.
If you won't apply scientific principles to religion don't apply religion as science. If good made everything then that us all the explanation there is. You can't use weaknesses in science to argue against science as that is using science to prove the existence of god.

You still haven't come up with a flaw in my good isn't infinite or he is a bastard argument
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Post Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:28 pm 
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Philip
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Aaron, I am glad that your teacher encouraged you to question. I have heard (on another forum) that some Christians are told they cannot question biblical issues. I find this to be absolutely wrong. If an argument is strong, it will survive questions.

The E. coli strain did evolve if the definition of evolution is change. There was definitely a beneficial mutation for the given medium. The E. coli normally only transports citrate across the membrane under anaerobic conditions, but the mutated strain transported citrate under aerobic conditions as well.

I agree that mutations happen. We see the 'flu' change every year. The mice splitting into six possible new species I linked a while back is another example of change. Many humans have lost the ability to shut down the production of lactase.

I was after observations that are repeatable and falsifiable to support the GTE. Here is a definition from Wikipedia. Life on Earth originated and then evolved from a universal common ancestor approximately 3.7 billion years ago.

The linked example shows E. coli evolving into E. coli. I would like to see a repeatable falsifiable experiment to show a singe celled organism evolving into a multicelled organism. Not finches into finches or moths into moths. Something that would support the GTE rather that evolution defined as any change whatsoever.

As to Noah's Flood, I will stick with the answer I gave to Sean. To me a global flood makes more sense of the geology that many small floods. For example, polystratic fossils such as tree trunks that stand through hundreds of thousands or millions of years of layers according to uniformitarian assumptions. How would they last that long without rotting away? The need for rapid burial and rapid fossilisation. For example, fish found with fossilised fish in their stomachs. They had to fossilise before they were digested. Fossilisation of jelly fish. They won't last for thousands of years while waiting to be fossilised. Sedimentary layers that cross continents. That is a big local flood. A non-flood model would need to include a near extinction level event to account for our tiny population . Noah's Flood about 4.5 ka ago would fit the population graph. Recent burial would account for the C14 found in coal and oil without the need to claim that the tests are faulty due to contamination. The massive amount of fossilised marine creatures on the continents also fits a global flood model.

But, just because the evidence makes sense to me in a global flood model, I do not expect people with a vast ages GTE belief to agree. We all interpret the evidence according to our bias. That is why a court case has a prosecutor and a defence lawyer. They each use the same evidence and construct two different scenarios.
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Post Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:38 am 
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Philip
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Valen, I obviously disagree with your argument but agree that you are entitled to your point of view.

God's foreknowledge does not remove or negate free will. A doctor that gives you a prognosis does not control the disease like a puppet. Equally, God's foreknowledge does not make you do what he knows you will do.

In my opinion, God's choice not to act does not imply inability to act. However, you are quite entitled to disagree with me as I assume you will.

"The book doesn't say anything about dinosaurs, so come up with some magic to explain it." The word dinosaur was only invented in the nineteenth century. We all know about Behemoth. It is a UK heavy weight robot. Before that, the word Behemoth got a mention in the Bible.

Job 40:15 (ESV)
15) ​​​​​​​​“Behold, Behemoth, ​​​​​​​which I made as I made you; ​​​​​​​he eats grass like an ox. ​​​

- Original: בּהמות
- Transliteration: B@hemowth
- Phonetic: be-hay-mohth'
- Definition:
1. perhaps an extinct dinosaur
a. a Diplodocus or Brachiosaurus, exact meaning unknown ++++ Some translate as elephant or hippopotamus but from the description in Job 40:15-24, this is patently absurd.

I agree with you that there is no direct evidence for the existence of God.

I do not want to apply a religious belief as science. I would classify Darwin's Evolutionary ideas as religion. In my opinion, it is not testable and falsifiable and therefore should not be classed as science. I think that Darwin's ideas have had a profound impact on recent history and it should still be taught in schools.

I am confident there are no aliens.

To me, the evidence supports the Bible. We find sudden appearance followed by stasis in the fossil record. Folded layers of strata would better fit with rapid formation and bending while wet than saying a 450 Ma rock bent without cracking.
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Post Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:49 am 
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seanet1310



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quote:
Originally posted by Philip:

The linked example shows E. coli evolving into E. coli. I would like to see a repeatable falsifiable experiment to show a singe celled organism evolving into a multicelled organism. Not finches into finches or moths into moths. Something that would support the GTE rather that evolution defined as any change whatsoever.



You know as well as the rest of us. Single to multi cell organism change is a long process and would be very rare happen let alone observe.
As you also know, you can not easily pick what generation is species x and what is species y. We have thousands of transitional fossils showing changes (but as you do not believe fossils of different levels are from different ages) you can discount them. You will never have every single generation for 10million years to show how millions of slight variations turn into what you would call a different species.

Why do you use GTE, I know of no one who uses that and even google does not show much when you google 'GTE evolution' and similar.


As for the global flood, no one says that they fish and jellyfish sit there for a few thousand years then get covered and become a fossil. Check out the Australian museum website for the most basic of descriptions http://australianmuseum.net.au/How-are-fossils-formed/
Or something a little more detailed. (i did not fully read this one to check its accuracy. http://www.fossils-facts-and-finds.com/how_are_fossils_formed.html

Valen has a point, You take an old book that surely you can see when you research its history the following
1) Half the time we have no idea who wrote it and any quotes or actions where far after they occured in many cases.
2) The bible was cannonised. taking out what use to exist that some elite decided where not to be included.
3) The 'word of god' needs to be interpreted. It can be interpreted to almost anything you wish
4) The bible can be translated to support your opinions and then you just say the other ones are inferior translations.
5) you think any small gap in a Scientific theory is a good reason not to go with it, yet the bible that contradicts itself a lot and we know is wrong on quite a few claims is fine and should be believed anyway. The double standards are more then just a bias.
The 'God of the Gaps' argument is something that can not be justified in any way

I will add a slightly different point.
What proof do you have that the Jewish or Muslim are not correct? They all have the same 'god'. They share many of the stories you love.

What proof do you even have your version of Christianity is the correct one. How do you know the eastern orthodox, Amish, Westborro baptists, jehovah's witnesses are not the true christians following and doing the bibles wishes
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Post Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:23 am 
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Philip
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Just briefly as I am short on time this morning.

GTE is short for the General Theory of Evolution. GTE is used to differentiate from any type of change evolution. GTE is abiogenesis leading to single celled life leading to all forms of life we currently see. Evolution, as defined by any change at all, does not necessarily support Darwin's idea. For example a loss in complexity is change therefore evolution, but does not support the idea of a gain in complexity.

I could use DE, Darwinian Evolution if GTE causes confusion.
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Post Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:31 am 
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Valen
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You missed the point.
The problem is if god has infinite power and infinite knowledge then he had the power to give everybody he created (which is everybody) a perfect life with no pain or suffering.

Instead god created everything exactly how it is, so when some baby is raped in the congo, god wanted that to happen because he made the world knowing it would happen even though he could have made a world where we are all perfectly content to ride around on unicorns eating fruit all day.

Oh i have your grass eating behemoth

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Post Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:00 pm 
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miles&Jules
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No even better...when child gets raped by a catholic priest here in oz (who the church know's is a pedophile)....god knows and lets it happen....God would have to be immoral to let that happen....while wasting his energy on creating visions of Mary.

Lets just face it .....there is no god.... and there has never been any evidence of one!
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Post Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:53 pm 
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Valen
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no, its not that god *let* that happen, god *made* that happen
If he knows exactly what will happen, and he made everything, then everything that happens is his fault.

The "god allows you free will" argument fails when god is an all powerful creator.
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Post Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:15 pm 
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