www.robowars.org

RoboWars Australia Forum Index -> Rules, Safety, Administration

Robot rules - (pneumatics related)
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Post new topic   Reply to topic
  Author    Thread
mytqik



Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 127


 Reply with quote  
Robot rules - (pneumatics related)

Hi guys,

I used to have the ABBL rules for robot construction, however that was awhile back. I am wondering if anyone has a set of rules they could post for me to download? or send to me: mytqik@hotmail.com

When is the next competition in QLD??

Thanks for your time

Post Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:08 am 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Philip
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 3842
Location: Queensland near Brisbane


 Reply with quote  

You can view the FRA rules here http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/rules.htm

I don't know when the next QLD comp is. Many QLD bots are going to NSW in July so that is their main concern at the moment.

Post Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:46 am 
 View user's profile Send private message
Philip
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 3842
Location: Queensland near Brisbane


 Reply with quote  

"7.12. All pneumatic systems must have appropriate gauges scaled for maximum resolution of the pressures in that part of the system. (There must be gauges on both the high AND low-pressure sides of regulators.)"

Is this rule nessessary? CO2 is measured by weight not by pressure. A pressure reading on unregulated CO2 would be meaningless. A possible rule could deal with the weight of CO2 at the time the bottle is filled.

Post Fri Sep 24, 2004 6:34 am 
 View user's profile Send private message
3Faze



Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 99
Location: Lincolnshire, UK


 Reply with quote  

[Edit: misread the posts]

Yeah, I'm having a bad FRA day Rolling Eyes

Post Fri Sep 24, 2004 6:49 am 
 View user's profile Send private message
Spockie-Tech
Site Admin


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 3160
Location: Melbourne, Australia


 Reply with quote  

The RoboWars rules are also available here
http://www.robowars.org/info-rules.html

They are based on the standard US RFL Rules
(as are the FRA rules, even if the FRA is too dishonest to admit it Confused )


quote:
"7.12. All pneumatic systems must have appropriate gauges scaled for maximum resolution of the pressures in that part of the system. (There must be gauges on both the high AND low-pressure sides of regulators.)"

Is this rule nessessary? CO2 is measured by weight not by pressure. A pressure reading on unregulated CO2 would be meaningless. A possible rule could deal with the weight of CO2 at the time the bottle is filled.


I'm no CO2 Expert, but I imagine this rule might be there to visually prove that the components upstream of the regulator (bottle, valve, lines etc) are demonstratably operating within their safe pressure limits.

It might be to stop people from filling their CO2 tank with liquid Nitrogen or HPA or something that operates at a higher pressure than CO2 does and risking a cylinder explosion
_________________
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

Post Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:32 am 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Valen
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 4433
Location: Sydney


 Reply with quote  

also C02 guages would be absolutly routed after every bout
sure they might not look damaged but they sure as hell wont be anywhere near the right reading.

can we can/modify this rule? if the pressure vessles have burst disks or overpressure valves on them then they are safe from overpressure rupture then the guages show no purpose to the EO at all i can see.
_________________
Mechanical engineers build weapons, civil engineers build targets

Post Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:45 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
3Faze



Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 99
Location: Lincolnshire, UK


 Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:

(as are the FRA rules, even if the FRA is too dishonest to admit it Confused )



I think we're allowed to say that they are a similar ruleset now, anyway, I'll shut up now before the FRA exile me to a colony n Sad

Post Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:45 am 
 View user's profile Send private message
Philip
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 3842
Location: Queensland near Brisbane


 Reply with quote  

quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:
I'm no CO2 Expert, but I imagine this rule might be there to visually prove that the components upstream of the regulator (bottle, valve, lines etc) are demonstratably operating within their safe pressure limits.

It might be to stop people from filling their CO2 tank with liquid Nitrogen or HPA or something that operates at a higher pressure than CO2 does and risking a cylinder explosion


The filling of the bottles could be monitored to be sure that the roboteer filled it with CO2 to the correct weight. A pressure gauge inside a robots armour would be quite difficult to see.

You may notice that CO2 bottles are sold as a certain weight for example 20 oz. Weight is the industry standard for CO2. Air tanks are sold at pressure and volume. Gauges would be appropriate for high pressure air tanks.

CO2 is filled to a pressure that is at the gasses change of state of matter point. That is, it exists both as a gas and a liquid. Pressure would have to be read in conjunction with tempurature to give volume which would give the weight when the molecular weight of the gas is known. Weighing the bottle might be simpler.

Valen makes a good point about the possibility of the gauge being damaged during a fight.

Marauder is getting a CO2 system with a safety burst disk and a pressure relief valve. This pressure release valve will be set to 1000 psi. All high pressure components are able to take greater pressure than this.

A high pressure gauge can be installed if it is considered nessessary or desirable. IMO it is niether

Post Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:42 am 
 View user's profile Send private message
Spockie-Tech
Site Admin


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 3160
Location: Melbourne, Australia


 Reply with quote  

Having to detail a pneumatically aware person to monitor the filling of competitors bots would be possible, but a nuisance since there arent many of us with the necessary experience with CO2 yet anyway..

The burst disc and relief valve should be sufficient safeguards in my opinion, but I dont presently consider myself a qualified judge of safety in High Pressure Pneumatics and dont want to go tinkering with the standard rules until I understand the possible consequences of the changes being made.

The guage would also serve as a visible indication of there still being pressure in the system, whether it was accurate or not, and that may be one of the reasons for its requirement. An uninformed person can look at the machine and tell whether it is "armed" or not.

If you would like this requirement waived for your bot for the RoboWars event, I suggest heading over the RFL Forum on Delphi, and posting a message for Steve Judd (Mr.Safety for most of the US events) explaining why you think the gauge is unnecessary and ask for his opinion. If he thinks its OK to omit then I'll go with that.
_________________
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

Post Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:30 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Ajax
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 298
Location: Sydney


 Reply with quote  

Pneumatic is something that you need to be very carefull with, and the parts used should never be operateded above there specifications.

All CO2 cylinder have a max pressure stamped on them. that will very .

The pneumatic cylinder are normaly operated at 6 -7 Bar (80 -100 Psi) and max is about 8 bar (120 Psi)

The gauges will be used to show the high and the low pressure levels, and to confirm that there is no pressure in the lines when the safty valve is turned of.

The gauge's that are used for pneumatic are mostly mechanical and it would be very unlikly that they would be damaged in a fight and give an incorrect reading. there are electronic versions, I don't know how they will hold in a fight.
_________________
It's all about the destruction.

Post Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:26 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger ICQ Number
Philip
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 3842
Location: Queensland near Brisbane


 Reply with quote  

You both make a good point about the need to show that the system is deactivated. This could be shown by seeing the dump valve open and the gas bottle valve closed. The flipper arm would also be locked in the fired position to stop activation. I would think that a flipper arm locked in the fired position would be a better and more visable sign of safety than a pressure gauge under armour where it cannot be seen.

A guide to filling paintball CO2 bottles can be found here. http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/gasses/fill.shtml

It is a good idea to go with the advice of the international safety recomendations. The international standard for liquid CO2 is weight not pressure. The proposed system coplies fully with the FRA rules. I know that in the UK they have many CO2 flippers. Are there many CO2 flippers in the US? http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/documents/buildrules.pdf

I will try to find Steve Judd to ask his opinion.

"Steve Judd has informed me that he feels a high side gauge for co2 is rather redundant in most cases because of the way you fill a co2 tank makes it rather hard to have any pressure other than ~800. This means we can not only ditch the huge and weighty gauge for weight savings but we don't have to stick it where we have to be able to see it."

This was found while searching the RFL forum it was marked as 249.79 in reply to 249.72

I will search this forum some more before I hastle Steve Judd. I don't want to ask an already answered question.

Post Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:20 am 
 View user's profile Send private message
Ajax
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 298
Location: Sydney


 Reply with quote  

If the first stage regulator is connected directly to the CO2 bottle. (with no tubing, pipe, etc in between.)
Then I agree that the high pressure gauge is not required.

Then only have a low pressure gauge after the first stage regulator.

This low pressure gauge will do a couple of things.

1. confirm that the dump valve is working correctly. (ie. no air pressure in the lines)

2. confirm that there is air is turned on before a fight.

depending on the pneumatic cct there should be at least 1 gauge, for safety reasons, even if it is only there for when the bot owner is working on it.
_________________
It's all about the destruction.

Post Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:35 am 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger ICQ Number
Spockie-Tech
Site Admin


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 3160
Location: Melbourne, Australia


 Reply with quote  

That message referred to is actually cross-posted from the NWar Forum which took me a while to find. you can refer to the original thread here.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=nwar&msg=249.79

Its second hand information (someone said that someone said), and although I doubt that Sean would say something untrue, I'd like to see a definitive answer direct from Steve to make sure there were no "if's" surround it.. something like "Its ok to eliminate the high pressure gauge as long as...."

I agree with Ajax that if the high side gauge is to be eliminated, then the regulator should be attached directly to the bottle to keep the number of components that are exposed to an unmonitored pressure to a minimum. This would keep it to just the bottle and regulator. No lines, fittings or intermeditate valves. The bottle would have to be shown to have a suitably rated burst valve.

Also I would expect that your filling system should then have a pressure gauge on its fill-line, so it can be demonstrated that the gas going into the bots cylinder is at the correct pressure and that some unscrupulous competitor isnt running with higher pressure gases in their filling bottle or something like that.

If you would like to ask a question of the RFL Safety guys, the relevant pneumatics thread would be http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=THERFL&msg=6.1 . The Inertia Labs guys regularly monitor that thread as well.
_________________
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

Post Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:29 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Philip
Experienced Roboteer


Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 3842
Location: Queensland near Brisbane


 Reply with quote  

I have applied to join the American forum to ask Steve Judd if I can run my bot in Australia without a high pressure gauge. I cannot post for 72 hours however.

"Also I would expect that your filling system should then have a pressure gauge on its fill-line, so it can be demonstrated that the gas going into the bots cylinder is at the correct pressure and that some unscrupulous competitor isnt running with higher pressure gases in their filling bottle or something like that."

BOC do not supply there fill bottles with pressure gauges. Noone uses pressure to measure liquid CO2. Liquid CO2 is measured by weight not pressure.

Post Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:56 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message
Spockie-Tech
Site Admin


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 3160
Location: Melbourne, Australia


 Reply with quote  

"I have applied to join the American forum to ask Steve Judd if I can run my bot in Australia without a high pressure gauge"

That sounds a little cynical.. Rolling Eyes..

I would put it that we do not presently have anyone with sufficient qualifications and/or experience in combat robot pneumatics to go modifying the standard ruleset with confidence. Hence his opinion on whether this rule can be safely deleted would be appreciated.

If you wish to volunteer for position of pneumatics advisor, can show sufficient qualifactions and experience and are willing to take responsibility for the safety of other people pneumatics systems at an event, then I will accept your opinion that the gauge is not required. If not, then I would like a second opinion from someone who I know who does fulfill all of those criteria.

" Noone uses pressure to measure liquid CO2. Liquid CO2 is measured by weight not pressure."

Yes, I am aware of that thank you.. I am not suggesting the fill gauge is in place to measure the quanitity of CO2 being filled. I thought i made it clear that I would like to be able to see that the pressure being applied to the unmonitored CO2 components (bottle and regulator) is not in excess of their ratings. A bottle explosion in the pits would not be fun.

Removal of the high pressure gauge from the bot leaves no way to verify that the high pressure side of the system is being operated within spec, other than to move the guage to the fill station and monitor the final pressure as the fill is completed. With no gauge on the fill station, and none on the bot, you could be putting 5000psi into your tanks for all I know.

If the EO was supplying the filling station and the CO2, then they could be confident that what was coming out of the tanks was normal pressure CO2, but with competitors providing their own filling tanks, I think the gauge could be important. I dont think it would be that hard for you to include the pressure guage in a T-fitting on your fill line.
_________________
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

Post Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:57 pm 
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
  Display posts from previous:      

Forum Jump:
Jump to:  

Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 4

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Forum Rules:
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 

Last Thread | Next Thread  >
Powered by phpBB: © 2001 phpBB Group
millenniumFalcon Template By Vereor.