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Robot rules - (pneumatics related)
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Philip
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WJ, the owner of Gravity(see above video), is just about to buy a motorbike.

Post Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:07 pm 
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Philip
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The RFL guys responded to my posts and gave me a fair hearing. They did not feel that 30 lb bot should go without gauges. They waive gauges in 12 lb bots, but for 30 lb and above, gauges are required.

Post Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:48 am 
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Valen
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*why*
i woluldnt trust any guage that had been in a bout to indicate anything at all.
its more dangerous to have something there saying "theres 0 pressure here" when infact the system is at full pressure.

what possible use is a guage on a CO2 setup?
its either pressurised or the dump lines are open.
if the dump lines arent open you assume its pressurised and treat it as such.
realistically though look at paintball for comparison. you get a big honking CO2 tank press it against your face and run around falling over hitting rocks with the flaming thing.

i'd think the saftey methods they employ would be sufficent no?

in addition if the person is filling a CO2 tank from a CO2 tank then the max pressure they can possibly achieve is about 1000psi (assuming a 50C day).
I think part of the problem here is pressure *can* be regulated so it is. A KE spinner will typically have much more energy in it than any co2 powered device, imagine what would happen if say nicks wepon bar came loose when it was at high speed, or even our disk if it caught the ground. that disk bent its 16mm shaft btw, over a distance of about 5mm it got a good 15 degree bend in it. (i think it might be singularity's fault ;-P) implies that the fiberglass is plenty strong holding the bearing in lol, but the point remains.
(we are re-making the shaft with high grade steel now so hopefully that problem will be avoided)
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Post Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:51 am 
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colin



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quote:
Originally posted by Valen:
i'd think the saftey methods they employ would be sufficent no?

It's safety and liability in question here, the EO needs to know what pressure your tank is for so it's know that your bot will safe in his arena, which he is liable for. The paintball guys know what pressure the tank is because they filled it themselves. I haven't followed closely, so i might be off the mark, but i don't believe the EO is going to fill each tank.

i don't see how it can be compared to other weapons. the arena should contain any spinning weapons, and any other weapons

Post Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:42 pm 
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Valen
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if the EO knows that it is being filled *from* a CO2 bottle then thats all they need to know.
CO2 in the tanks is a liquid primarily.
you *cant* run a "higher pressure" unless you heat the tank and even if you did there would be no point in doing so whatsoever.

there are bucketloads of commercial co2 filling stations for sale in paintball stores and many people fill their own tanks on commercial fields. (typically they just arrive with several filled tanks)

the point i am making is that it is pointless to run a guage on a CO2 tank because it will read 750PSI (give or take) continiously. Unless the guage is broken. you cant fill a co2 tank by pressure because it will always read 750psi.

the only way to fill a co2 tank is by weight, you fill the tank to say 20 ounces (common tank size). as long as the tank has a burst disk at the rated pressure (which all paintball tanks come with) then its as safe as its going to get. Personally i'd say it was safer than putting a guage on it because sombody might believe the guage. as for tampering,
a) it'd be pointless because you couldnt actually do it
b) it wouldnt improve your performance
c) it'd be stupid

you might add 4 grams of gas going from a full CO2 tank then "over pressuring" it to 5000PSI with i dunno a seperate nitrogen tank or something. But you have 600 grams of liquid CO2 in there in the first place (and the pressure guage will read 750PSI from 1 gram right the way to 600 (and the tank would be *more* dangerous at 1 gram anyway)).

so long as the tank is valid tested, is unmodified, is undamaged, then they are probbly safer than a nicad pack which could quite easily catch fire and explode with nothing more than a nut or bolt bridging some terminals, or a SLA pack which contains all that lovley sulphuric acid (which is rather toxic btw, whats the ventilation at sidetracked arena going to be like it was pretty lethal in jeff's shed after scoopy cut singularity)
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Post Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:38 pm 
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Philip
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Valen, I agree with you. A pressure gauge will not make a robot safe. My robot will be made safe by locking the flipper arm in the fired position before the CO2 bottle is installed. The arm will then not move even if all of the safety devices and all of the other safety procedures fail. The raised and restrained flipper arm will also be a very visable sign of the robot being in safe mode.

The bottle will only be installed immediately prior to going into the arena. The bottle will be stored in a cool place out of direct sunlight when filled to prevent warming. The flipper restraint will be the last thing to come off before a match and the first thing to go back on after a fight.

Brett's position here is completely understandable. He is responsible for everyones safety. He does't have the time to aquaint himself with the information on CO2. Brett took the same position that I would take were I in his place. He sort the advice of someone he trusts. Steve Judd took the time to answer my posts and I can ask no more than that.

Lets focus on areas we agree on. We want our sport to grow and be safe. Our sport is all about people having fun.

Post Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:58 pm 
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Philip
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Today I bought a 20 oz CO2 tank with a pressure gauge.

Post Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:32 pm 
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Philip
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Last night I noticed that the pressure gauge has failed. It is stuck at about 850 psi. I don't know if it failed during it's first or second match. It might have failed while it was being filled.
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Post Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:29 am 
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Glen
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well when you where discussing the pressure rules and that on the other forum wherent you arguing that the pressure gauge is useless because it always breaks Smile

i guess you would be right in this instance lol
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Post Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:21 am 
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Valen
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sounds vuagley familiar that.

now if said 0 on it when it failed it would be *very* dangerous. if it were in a bot.

outside of a bot, more likley there would be a pssssht and sombody would say "hey that aint empty"
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Post Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:07 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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Was it one of those paint-ball gauges ? They're supposed to be able to handle bumps and thumps, although maybe not at the G-Shock levels we're used to.

How about instead of a gauge (because as we've already been through, knowing the actual pressure isnt that important with CO2), you were to use a pressure switch that activated a nice bright LED when over 50psi or something as a warning that the system was charged ?

Of course finding a pressure switch that can handle the maximum pressure and cold temperatures might be tricky..
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Post Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:46 pm 
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Ajax
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There are digital gauges that should be able to handle the G-Forces beter and they are small and don't weigh much.
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Post Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:42 pm 
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Philip
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It could have been as simple as dust. I just put the gas bottle into the robot in the arena at House of Carnage and removed it before I left the arena.

You can hear when the gas turns on. You can hear when you vent the gas.

A transducer would be just as likely to fail as a simple pressure gauge.
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Post Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:13 am 
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Valen
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any system that can possibly read 0 when there is 1000 psi in there is dangerous.

only way to be safe is to *assume* there is 1000 psi in the bottle if it has the end on it.
if the bottle is plugged into the bot, then the bot has 1000 psi in it.
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Post Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:07 pm 
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DumHed
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yep, nothing is fail safe or fool proof.

Always assume that it's live and dangerous, and everything's fine Smile
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Post Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:26 pm 
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