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Giant Robo
Experienced Roboteer
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 583
Location: Marayong NSW
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Here`s how I try to look at it, I hope it makes sense.
From the start I try to see who is driving the most accurately and strategically, who is dominating the bout, doing the most pushing and stiking hits, half flips or flipping invertibles, wedgies, saw attacks, spinner bashes, drilling attempts, whether this is inflicting superficial damage or not. This may be one sided for the whole bout and rates rather highly with me, or the tide may turn half way, then it kind of negates that part of my observations and I can forget about it.
If one bot turns the bout around in the last minute and inflicts greater amounts of superficial damage; without KO or dissabling one side of the opponents drive, then this can be confusing to decide.
If said bot has destroyed the opponents weapon, or it breaks down, I would probably give the win to him.
If a bot dominates a bout, receives the most superficial damage but still has all its functions at the end, I would give the win to him.
If the bout is fairly even I would give the win to the bot with the least superficial damage.
If a bot has lost one side of it`s drive by the end it must have dominated the bout and displayed a convincing ability by the driver to be able to manouver around the arena in a deliberate fasion to win. And have the least superficial damage. (a contentious one)
KO; speaks for itself.
I may have missed some aspects, or be convinved to change my mind on issues but though I should start the balls rolling again (sic. ed.)
This form of judging may be more intuitive and less clynical but saves us in a more informal and also anonamous, relaxed approach rather than the judges having to record details and number crunching in what could feel like a high pressure examination.
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Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:48 am |
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Spockie-Tech
Site Admin
Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 3160
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Naturally those who have bots with high damage potential think damage should be emphasised and those with wedges would consider a wedge attack equivalent..
I wouldnt not consider a wedging or flipping equivalent to a hit from a spinner though.. they are totally different types of attack. Both count towards *aggression*.. but it is possible to get wedged all over the place and flipped over and over without hurting your bot one bit, and hence.. No Damage points.
calculated its attacks better ? took advantage of situations better ? Thats *control*.
Add in the encouragement for people to build interesting robots (Style), and you have the damage, control, agression, style points system. So whats the problem ?
More emphasis on damage ? Fine, Knock the other person out with your damage and you dont even have to worry about the judges opinions, you automatically win.. No problem
If you cant do enough damage to do that, then maybe all you are doing is putting scratches and gouges in metal-skinned "air-armour", and not hurting anything critical. which would be exactly the reason for someone to go to the extra trouble (weight challenge) of building a low-density large robot with ablative armour and putting all the sensitive insides a long way from harm..
I agree that a robot that can only drive in circles should be counted out as immobile (unless it can wiggle about sufficiently to still show controlled directional motion).
At Robowars however, *IIRC* Re-Boots drive Belt only came off in the final seconds of the fight and there wasnt sufficient time for a count-out remaining. In those circumstances (being disabled with 5 seconds left to go), then it should go to the judges, since a bot is entitled at least 10 seconds of being disabled before being counted as KO'd.
These judging criteria were printed-out and given to the main judges to read at RoboWars.. If anyone wants a copy of them, they're welcome to them.
There were some "guest judges" that may not have been fully aware of issues like this at RoboWars, since we couldnt find 3 people who could devote the whole weekend to watching every single fight and werent competitors, so occasionally a judge would hand over to a guest judge when there was a conflict of interest (one of their team mates was competing),
I think the judging at RoboWars was very fair and even-handed.. at least I didnt hear anyone complain.. were there any decisions (apart from the plan-b/reboot match explained above) that someone thought was unfair ? _________________ Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people
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Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:15 pm |
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Valen
Experienced Roboteer
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 4436
Location: Sydney
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see to me that is saying
just build a steel box with a decent drive and you will win because you "attack" more.
pushy matches just arent that exciting though.
just looking at the roboteer attendance at the fights in melb, when 2 pushy bots were on most people focused on their bots, when re-boot, IG, scoopy plan-b, or (insert name of big nasty spinning thing from qld here) most people made the time to watch the fight.
without the damage its more of a RC-car derby.
we cooled off on plan-C because a) valves are spensive, and b) its "damage" isnt spectacular, and is far too likley to bust up valuablle bits inside the oponents bot, we dont want to go punching holes in speed controllers and batteries, it isnt entertaining, and thats what this is about.
the coloseum would have sucked if the combatants had pistols.
full credit to reboot btw they were probbly our toughest and most "interesting" fight with luck playing a large role, though we did damage them more ;-P
might have just been the heat of the moment but it felt much longer than 5 seconds lol, we were driving figure 8's (and 9's ;->)
now of course i am biased towards damage but thats what people watch for isnt it? people dont download vids of pushy bouts generally.
the judging in general seemed well set up, i obviously have no arguments with it lol. i just didnt feel our bout was a "close call" or i would have kept attacking re-boot after they were translationarily challenged. _________________ Mechanical engineers build weapons, civil engineers build targets
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Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:04 pm |
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Nexus
Experienced Roboteer
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 903
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Someone once said “Contradictory styles makes for a good fight“.
Pushy bots can get boring but so can any robot actually.
I can appreciate what Jake is saying about guns in colosiums, its a good point actually as some Gladiators where spared from death if they where competitive, damage became secondary because the audiance was entertained with style.
Damage alone does not make a good fight, theres more to it than that and thats why judging is going to be inconsistant.
Personally what I like is competition, different bots have different fighting styles, some are boxers, some are bitch slappers, some are martial artists, some are thugs and some are suicidal bombers.
Am sure just watching Plan B rip up robots will get boring after a while if theres no competition or strategy shown.
Most of the pushy bots seemed to have problems which does make them seem boring but they can be cool when thay are overpowered and fast which they should be actually.
The discussions so far regarding Plan B and reboot got me curious and have been watching the video and this is how it looks to me.
First couple of minutes its fairly even as both have hits on each other.
reboot probably had more hits but Plan B hits bigger so feel are pretty even there. The belt falls out of reboot after 2 minutes and 32 seconds and reboot doesnt move much and stays stationary while Plan B circles.
The match goes slightly longer than the 3 minutes so reboot was immobilised for over 30 seconds and was hit a few times as well in the last 10 seconds.
Damage was not obvious at first but the bumper bar armour on reboot was torn pretty bad so combined with the loss of drive on one side would suggest the damage points easily goint to Plan B. THat alone seemed to be the deciding factor to me as everything else in the fight seemed fairly close. Am sure others see it different thats why judging criteria are going to be important.
I remember at the first Robowars I had lost one side of my drive in the last minute in my first 2 fights but drove in a way that no one seemed to realise and got the wins so staying aggresive instead of being too defensive can help. _________________ Bots that do not destroy you, only make you stronger.
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Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:35 am |
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