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Judging.NSW season 2
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chrisjon65
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Judging.NSW season 2

Is judging during season 2 going to need adressing? or are we happy with how it went in season 1?
how is a boxing match judged ? can a similar system be used in our sport?
Do you have a bunch of beans in each hand and everytime a bot does something you deam good you drop a bean into either your left or right pocket lol??
do the judges each have a simle score card [paper] with three criterias on it
STYLE ,DAMAGE ,AGRESSION.... then a quick tick or mark under the appropriate column and the ticks and marks are added up at the end of each battle ......
just a few suggestions ,how does the rest feel Very Happy
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Post Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:49 pm 
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Glen
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LMAO now that you mention it thats how i judge,

when someone does something good i just count 1 on my left hand for one robot, and 1 on the other hand if the other robot does something good, first robot to do 5 good things wins...

crap way to judge but then again thats why i say not to make me a judge Very Happy

the balls seems to do fine, i can live with it... jake suggested handing out the balls before the fight which sounds like a fine idea as well, seeing as though the judges are all decided before the fight starts. (so you dont have to chase people down after the fight.)
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Post Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:02 pm 
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andrew



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i think a more detailsed way to judge a fight is needed as there were a few last series that were very difficult.

one instance was plan b verses sorry. plan b did some vicious damage but sorry did control lots in that match and the end resukt was a confised and somewhat cranky jake.

i think something in where u give a ranking 1 out of 10 for each thing (style, controll, agression) and add up teh total amount for each and whoever has the most for two out of three things win.
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Post Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:52 pm 
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Giant Robo
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Looks like we will be sticking with the "let your balls drop" method. Only handing out your balls to someone you trust before each bout and being able to reject someone if you think they might be biased or you don`t think they are qualified to hold your balls. We probably STILL need to openly discuss and educate ourselves as to what aspect of judging we give more credit to; the damage, aggression, the driving skill, dominance etc. I tried to raise this subject again in another thread but did not get very much response (asking "how do YOU judge?").
If we can all happily agree to consider the same criteria we will be blissfully confident in knowing how to handle our balls! Wink Laughing

Post Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:22 pm 
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Giant Robo
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Here`s how I try to look at it, I hope it makes sense.

From the start I try to see who is driving the most accurately and strategically, who is dominating the bout, doing the most pushing and stiking hits, half flips or flipping invertibles, wedgies, saw attacks, spinner bashes, drilling attempts, whether this is inflicting superficial damage or not. This may be one sided for the whole bout and rates rather highly with me, or the tide may turn half way, then it kind of negates that part of my observations and I can forget about it.

If one bot turns the bout around in the last minute and inflicts greater amounts of superficial damage; without KO or dissabling one side of the opponents drive, then this can be confusing to decide.

If said bot has destroyed the opponents weapon, or it breaks down, I would probably give the win to him.

If a bot dominates a bout, receives the most superficial damage but still has all its functions at the end, I would give the win to him.

If the bout is fairly even I would give the win to the bot with the least superficial damage.

If a bot has lost one side of it`s drive by the end it must have dominated the bout and displayed a convincing ability by the driver to be able to manouver around the arena in a deliberate fasion to win. And have the least superficial damage. (a contentious one)

KO; speaks for itself.

I may have missed some aspects, or be convinved to change my mind on issues but though I should start the balls rolling again (sic. ed.)

This form of judging may be more intuitive and less clynical but saves us in a more informal and also anonamous, relaxed approach rather than the judges having to record details and number crunching in what could feel like a high pressure examination.

Post Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:48 am 
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Valen
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in my view not enough credit is given to damage.

the whole point of this thing is it should be exciting.
2 wedges in the arena generally gets pretty boring pretty quick. the bots who spend the weight and reliability on having an active wep are penalised with the most exciting part of an event counting as only a quater of the final tally.

another thing
at the robowars event re-boot had one side of its drive system disabled and some other damage (as i recall could well be wrong about that) but we won by like 4 points (of 50). BTW reboot == Scary robot, could have got interesting if they werent disabled like that.

a fully mobile bot should win over one that cant move.
however El-B's nifty one wheel drive setup would still count.

judging criteria should be well defined and defined in advance
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Post Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:27 am 
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chrisjon65
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yes damage is an issue for sure .but what needs to be considered in judging damage is wether the person doing the damage actually made the attack!!! or did the person recieving the damage drive into the weapon .......that being the case in my opinion as a judge of a battle i dont see that as a point scorer for either and i wouldnt consider the damage in my decision ......different if i saw a genuine attack on the part of the damager ......
if a bot with a wedge drives well and attacks and gets under its opponent consistantly, then every time he gets under his opponent i judge that the same as a hit from a spinning weapon and a flip from a flipper...
an attack is an attack and it should be judged as such .....

this is how i feel about it .....here goes Wink
if i was to build a bot with a weapon with the destruction capability of
PLAN B and BASILISK i would do so with the intention of nothing but a knockout each time i battled no judging because judging should involve a lot more than damage alone ......
what if a wedge bot drove better ,calculated its attacks better ,took advantage of situations during the fight better but in doing so got its side ripped off?? but was still attacking at fights end got a few chunks out of it as well ...........WHO WINS
when im judging damage is about 4th on my list for making a decision its just how i see it .....i think the secret word is ATTACK Very Happy
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Post Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:29 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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Naturally those who have bots with high damage potential think damage should be emphasised and those with wedges would consider a wedge attack equivalent.. Wink

I wouldnt not consider a wedging or flipping equivalent to a hit from a spinner though.. they are totally different types of attack. Both count towards *aggression*.. but it is possible to get wedged all over the place and flipped over and over without hurting your bot one bit, and hence.. No Damage points.

calculated its attacks better ? took advantage of situations better ? Thats *control*.

Add in the encouragement for people to build interesting robots (Style), and you have the damage, control, agression, style points system. So whats the problem ?

More emphasis on damage ? Fine, Knock the other person out with your damage and you dont even have to worry about the judges opinions, you automatically win.. No problem

If you cant do enough damage to do that, then maybe all you are doing is putting scratches and gouges in metal-skinned "air-armour", and not hurting anything critical. which would be exactly the reason for someone to go to the extra trouble (weight challenge) of building a low-density large robot with ablative armour and putting all the sensitive insides a long way from harm..

I agree that a robot that can only drive in circles should be counted out as immobile (unless it can wiggle about sufficiently to still show controlled directional motion).

At Robowars however, *IIRC* Re-Boots drive Belt only came off in the final seconds of the fight and there wasnt sufficient time for a count-out remaining. In those circumstances (being disabled with 5 seconds left to go), then it should go to the judges, since a bot is entitled at least 10 seconds of being disabled before being counted as KO'd.

These judging criteria were printed-out and given to the main judges to read at RoboWars.. If anyone wants a copy of them, they're welcome to them.

There were some "guest judges" that may not have been fully aware of issues like this at RoboWars, since we couldnt find 3 people who could devote the whole weekend to watching every single fight and werent competitors, so occasionally a judge would hand over to a guest judge when there was a conflict of interest (one of their team mates was competing),

I think the judging at RoboWars was very fair and even-handed.. at least I didnt hear anyone complain.. were there any decisions (apart from the plan-b/reboot match explained above) that someone thought was unfair ?
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Post Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:15 pm 
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Glen
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what about this situation -

ballistic vs plan b and has its "air armour" stuff ripped to shreds with gashes all through it,

then plan b vs KO and puts a few holes in the side that dont do anything critical,

which one would get more damage points? i would have thought that the KO fight would get more damage points because it has harder armour to penetrate so it would naturally get more... if you get what i mean.

nah unfair decisions i cant recall any against me.. i was thinking on the saturday night of the competition that my first match with ballistic was a rip off because it propped itself up on its wedge.. but then i realised that i knocked it down again.. i think before 10 seconds. so no problems there Smile
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Post Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:25 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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In your Ballistic/KO example, Ballistic would most likely have more damage points counted against it, since it has obviously suffered more "visible" damage than KO.

However the likelyhood of any hole that penetrated KO's armour doing critical damage is far higher than a penetrating hole doing critical damage to Ballistic.

Thats the advantage of "air armour" - it makes it harder to hurt anything critical. The disadvantage is that you take more visible non-critical damage that will count against you in a judges decision. it means more stuff to repair more often to stop the bot looking battered too..
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Post Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:53 pm 
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Valen
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see to me that is saying
just build a steel box with a decent drive and you will win because you "attack" more.

pushy matches just arent that exciting though.
just looking at the roboteer attendance at the fights in melb, when 2 pushy bots were on most people focused on their bots, when re-boot, IG, scoopy plan-b, or (insert name of big nasty spinning thing from qld here) most people made the time to watch the fight.
without the damage its more of a RC-car derby.

we cooled off on plan-C because a) valves are spensive, and b) its "damage" isnt spectacular, and is far too likley to bust up valuablle bits inside the oponents bot, we dont want to go punching holes in speed controllers and batteries, it isnt entertaining, and thats what this is about.
the coloseum would have sucked if the combatants had pistols.


full credit to reboot btw they were probbly our toughest and most "interesting" fight with luck playing a large role, though we did damage them more ;-P
might have just been the heat of the moment but it felt much longer than 5 seconds lol, we were driving figure 8's (and 9's ;->)

now of course i am biased towards damage but thats what people watch for isnt it? people dont download vids of pushy bouts generally.

the judging in general seemed well set up, i obviously have no arguments with it lol. i just didnt feel our bout was a "close call" or i would have kept attacking re-boot after they were translationarily challenged.
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Post Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:04 pm 
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DumHed
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yeah the more carnage the better Smile

I'd rather see my own bot get smashed to bits than not see any destruction at a comp!
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Post Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:33 pm 
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Knightrous
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I agree with Jake, Plan B was doing some figure of 8 & 9's around the arena for a fair while. I remember Jake kept asking if they were taping out or if he could hit them again.
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Post Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:32 am 
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Nexus
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Someone once said “Contradictory styles makes for a good fight“.

Pushy bots can get boring but so can any robot actually.
I can appreciate what Jake is saying about guns in colosiums, its a good point actually as some Gladiators where spared from death if they where competitive, damage became secondary because the audiance was entertained with style.

Damage alone does not make a good fight, theres more to it than that and thats why judging is going to be inconsistant.
Personally what I like is competition, different bots have different fighting styles, some are boxers, some are bitch slappers, some are martial artists, some are thugs and some are suicidal bombers.

Am sure just watching Plan B rip up robots will get boring after a while if theres no competition or strategy shown.
Most of the pushy bots seemed to have problems which does make them seem boring but they can be cool when thay are overpowered and fast which they should be actually.

The discussions so far regarding Plan B and reboot got me curious and have been watching the video and this is how it looks to me.

First couple of minutes its fairly even as both have hits on each other.
reboot probably had more hits but Plan B hits bigger so feel are pretty even there. The belt falls out of reboot after 2 minutes and 32 seconds and reboot doesnt move much and stays stationary while Plan B circles.
The match goes slightly longer than the 3 minutes so reboot was immobilised for over 30 seconds and was hit a few times as well in the last 10 seconds.

Damage was not obvious at first but the bumper bar armour on reboot was torn pretty bad so combined with the loss of drive on one side would suggest the damage points easily goint to Plan B. THat alone seemed to be the deciding factor to me as everything else in the fight seemed fairly close. Am sure others see it different thats why judging criteria are going to be important.

I remember at the first Robowars I had lost one side of my drive in the last minute in my first 2 fights but drove in a way that no one seemed to realise and got the wins so staying aggresive instead of being too defensive can help.
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Post Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:35 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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I wasnt sure if my memory of the fight was accurate, so its good to hear the video-replay judging there.. thanks george.. Smile

It sounds like it was a fairly close match, although technically, maybe reboot should have been called as immobilised.. however circling around being ready to hit him again doesnt sound like anyone was waiting for the judges to call time.. Wink

One future tip for competitors that I've seen others do.. if you want to make it very obvious to the judges that you believe you have won by KO, then return to your starting square and park there facing out. That clearly demonstrates that you are still functional and you believe they aren't. That should start a countdown against them pretty darn quick
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Post Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:03 pm 
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