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ICE's at events (again)
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Philip
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Joined: 18 Jun 2004
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Location: Queensland near Brisbane


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Depending on weight class, chainsaws and brush cutter engines could be used. They are two stroke, invertible and have their own clutch.

There are measures such as fire extinguishers that could be used to reduce the risk of fire.

The desirability of destructive spinners should not be addressed by banning ICE.

Nic is a level headed and sensible man. He is not cavalier with safety. He would not allow ICE in his arena without duly considering the risks.

I also respect the event organisers who choose not to allow ICE.
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Post Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:43 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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There's something to be said for that as well... I *was* being a bit grumpy when I ranted against them.. Embarassed Its not so much the safety aspect that bothers me, although that is a part of it..

I think my personal main beef with them is that I dont like what I think of as "hand grenade" robots.. any machine that does a lot of damage in its early rounds, but is fairly unlikely to be able to survive an entire event before falling apart from its own backlash.

They introduce too much "randomness" into a competition in my opinion.

Since the first round is a random draw, I feel its a bit unfair for a machine that is a well-engineered balance of speed, power, offense, defense and survivability to have to go up against a bot that is pure-offense and will likely deal out a lot of damage in its early fights, then retire or lose before it makes it through to the finals because its weapon is no longer working after a few big hits.

I know that some will think "thats just part of the game" and I agree that a certain amount of randomness is to be expected, but its kind of like "player killing" in multi-player games. It spoils the fun for those who prefer a bit more to a game of chess than someone lobbing a hand grenade into the room and eveyone losing.

Perhaps we should consider "rigging" the first round draw, and putting all the nasty spinners up against each other, and all the brick-bots etc, then only at the "finals" end, would the "best of the spinners" go up against the "best of the bricks" and so on, and only after having to fight their way through their own type rather than relying on the randomness of the draw to get an easy to chew-up opponent.

(dont take that comment too seriously, just a thought.. Wink)

If people wanted ICE motors to power hydraulic pumps to make a cool walking robot, or to do something creatively interesting that an electric motor couldnt achieve the power density for then I'd probably be more inclined to overlook their shortcomings.

Or, if people used them to build an well-engineered spinner that could reasonably be expected to survive a competition (say something like Hazard) then I would probably respect them more since they would be a "serious" competitor rather than a fool with a hand grenade.

But there are only a few people in the country that I think have learnt enough about engineering hi-power spinners to manage that - do you know how many people tried to copy designs like Hazard and found out its a lot harder than they expected to keep them running ? Thats why there were lots of hazard-clones in the starting rounds of BattleBots, but *none* of the clones made it through to the TV rounds before falling apart. Tony and Dan deserve a lot of respect just for managing to keep such a self-destructive design together on a reliable basis every event..

How many spinners fail to win a competition because of lack of hitting power and need more power to do better ? Not many I'll bet. Reliability is what they need to win.

For inexperienced spinner builders, it would just up the power level at the cost of even more decreased reliability and that (only in my opinion of course) is a bad thing.
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Post Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:17 am 
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original_carnage
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Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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Location: Toowoomba(ish), travel to Brisbane


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On fuels.....
Common knowledge - get heat source/flame near petrol = fire.
Fuel fact I've proved heaps of times myself - drop a lit match in a bowl full of methanol-hobby fuel = 1 extinguished match. No fire.
Which is why I'd prefer methanol engines over petrol.

I'm getting 2 extinguishers for fuel fires and 2 for electrical fires. One of each stays in the arena shed, the others will be kept in the pit shed - right beside a work room I'm putting in.
The work room is where any grinding, welding, bot testing, refueling, regassing, etc, etc. can be done... behind the protection of what we currently use as the internal arena walls.
The arena is being upgraded early next year. More viewing area, steel step plate for low wall reinforcing, more area to fight in and full sized polycarb screens.
Besides this being an activity I've wanted to do for ages, the arena is at my home. Safety is vital. All who build and compete do so at their own risk... but there ARE innocent children here.

Edit : small, hobby ICE engines to power a hydraulic system was my main thinking too.
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Post Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:49 pm 
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Philip
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Nic, you need to get a CO2 extinguisher. No I wasn't thinking of using it to fill Marauder.

Brett's topic of "hand grenade" robots deserves exploring. Should they be stopped? How do you decide if it is a hand grenade?
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Post Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:19 pm 
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Glen
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quote:
Brett's topic of "hand grenade" robots deserves exploring. Should they be stopped? How do you decide if it is a hand grenade


hey if you want to can the type of bots capable of doing their intended job well so be it, ill leave you to drive around your oversize radio control toys Wink if there so unreliable there just going to die during the first fight anyway.


quote:
after a while i think high powered spinners smashing into armoured boxes


maybe i have a one track way of thought, but ill never get sick of it Cool \

btw lindsay - extraction fans = YES. putting those floor panels in, in the summer really blew. not to mention two car fans spinning around in the arena would look all blade runner style.


quote:
wouldnt those tin side-walls at the marayong arena need to be beefed up a bit ?


i wouldnt believe so, the panels are 2mm steel or so with concrete filling and most of the outer panels or all welded together so its pretty strong. it would be the poly wall i would be more concerened with (getting cracked all the time rather than flying through it)
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Post Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:08 pm 
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prong
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yeah Glen it was hot work doing those panels Razz hehe but worth it.

Brett - currently the arena uses the concrete filled steel floor panels as walls as well as the floor so its pretty strong, a full speed hit from jolt pulls back some metal but the concrete slows it right down.

I dont think ICE engines should be used because they sound cool for an ausience, I think people should use them if they have a design that they work well in.

anyway, it will be interesting.

Post Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:16 pm 
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Rotwang
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Joined: 15 Jun 2004
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I have collected a few wiper snipper ice’s for feather use but I am not in any hurry to try and use them.
Just the thought of starting them in the arena and keeping them going while I am in there with them with a remote control worries me a bit. Confused

An electric self starter would fix that but weight points are likely to be scarce.
Of corse as soon as it gets a hit in it will probably stall anyhow so that electric starter is looking like a must have item.
Course it needs good batteries.
Then again if I leave out all the smelly ice stuff I can have an even bigger starter and just use it to power the weapon and more batteries then life gets simpler. Smile

I think if you are building 100 kg heavies then ice power starts to be a good idea.
If you won’t bragging rights as to who built the first Ausie ice feather go right ahead.
Oh a couple of other thoughts, I don’t think it’s a good idea to have ic bots in the same pit area as regular bots, too many ignition sources Fire extinguishers have there places but its better not to have to use them.

As far as Brett’s Grenade theory I don’t think IC bots are likely to be any worse than electric spinners As in they are likely to be easier to beat as I think they will be more likely to malfunction.
Spinners are a legitament even necessary type of bot, a really powerful spinner is as Brett has been saying a very difficult type of bot to build reliably.
Just because we are not building these types of bots in Vic does not mean that we don’t appreciate this.
On the contrary the fact that they are such a difficult design to build and the strategy of hitting your opponent really hard is only one of a number of ways to win a fight and often it is not the easiest way most of us down this way think hi ke spinners are a bad idea even before factoring the extra costs in $ and time inflicted on opponents.
Extreme examples where armour and or speed and agility have been seriously compromised in order to get the biggest possible hit makes for what I tend to regard as kamikaze bots.
No hope of going the distance but a good chance that they will cost anyone who draws them first round a lot of repair time.

Getting back to the IC question the most likely design for an IC feather is I think a mecavor clone.
Unless you are going to use an expensive model aeroplane type engine the blade of a hazard clone would be way too high to be a threat to most bots.
Most IC is so large that it would be unlikely that the bot would be invertible so you are left with a bot vulnerable from 3 sides and from being flipped. So where is the deal? The IC has to rev fast to make power, it really needs some sort of centrifugal clutch to stop weapon spinning at idle speed and try and prevent stalling so more complexity and weight points there.
Hydraulics? Well as no one locally has built an electric over hydraulics feather here you qualify for two firsts if you can pull that off.
Bottom line, I might try building one one day but so far down the priority list that I haven’t even put any thought into coming up with a name for that project.

Post Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:04 am 
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Glen
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had a thought for extraction fans in marayong, you know those cheap 240v fans with the little clamp attachment on the bottom? we could just clamp those onto the front of the arena at the top of the wall.
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Post Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:56 am 
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kkeerroo
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My view on both ICE and "hand-grenade" robots is if it fits within the rules and will not be a danger to builders or spectators then it should be allowed. It is all part of the engineering challenge to build your robot to survive against anything the other guy might come up with.
Besides it goes against the whole Rock-Paper-Scissors view of combat robotics if the Rocks can't play.
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Post Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:08 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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Thats true, although I'm probably somewhat biased towards reliable bots rather than "KamiKaze" bots in the interest of making a good event rather than a good fight or two....

The bottom line is, if your Event-Operator is prepared to deal with the safety issues of your design, go ahead and build it regardless of what anyone else thinks.. it will soon prove itself or not in the arena.

I "think" (not quite sure now) the point I was trying to make is that an ICE may well be an exciting, noisy source of high power, but that on its own does not make a competitive bot design.. and there are many drawbacks to be dealt with as well..
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Post Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:02 am 
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Rotwang
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I am probably going to regret this post but as far as examples of Grenade and Kamikaze bots go I would like to nominate Basilisk EV as a good example of a Kamikaze bot, its strategy was to king hit its opponent and in doing so it inevitably destroyed its weapon motor.

The best example of a Grenade that I can think of is Little Brute; this robot didn’t need an opponent. Just turn it on and watch it smash itself to pieces.

Orbit was in there to, imagine a robot that can’t turn with the weapon spinning without the gyroscopic forces rolling it on its side, I think that makes it a runner up in the Grenade category, not destroying itself but defiantly beating itself by building a more powerful weapon than the chassis can cope with.

Powerful Hi KE spinners like Jolt, PlanB, Vertial Limits have all won events and proved Hi KE spinners can be made to go the distance.

I guess I am trying to explain a slight shade of meaning as far as the way some designs have what may be thought of as short comings.

The Grenade by trying to be outrageously powerful becomes a danger to itself.
The Kamikaze becomes a danger to its opponent and itself.

It is my opinion that a feather IC hi KE spinner stands an exceptionally good chance of becoming a Grenade.
I don’t wont to put anyone off building one but I think it only fair to caution inexperienced builders. Smile

Post Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:53 pm 
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Totaly_Recycled
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I have thought about hydraulics garry but the main prob with crusher or other low speed high torque wheapons is that they require the whole mechanism to be able to handle the full stress it is dishing out hence it has to be built strong which equals heavy unles space age expensive materials are used which i cant aford .I have a couple of crusher ideas i would like to try one of these days mabee in a light weight .

Post Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:04 pm 
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DumHed
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one thing I've thought about for electric powered hydraulic stuff is to use an EFI type car fuel pump.
They're easy to find, and will make over 100psi with pretty decent flow rates while sucking 10 amps or so.
Otherwise I'd use a power steering pump with a whipper snipper engine or similar.

Maybe if I ever get a car back on the road I'll finish my robot and put one of the engines I have in it Smile
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Post Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:43 pm 
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Rotwang
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I have an ABS unit that I thought might power a Lightweight crusher. Smile

One annoying part of any hydraulic design is making it invertible.
You can’t use a simple reservoir; it needs an arrangement that stopes any air getting to the pump.

The design for Brett’s middleweight Acid test 2 used an IC powered power steering pump driving 2 of those hydraulic fan motors that some cars use instead of electric fan motors.
The idea was that the weapons could hit and stall without shocking the IC engine.

Probably fit a wiper snipper with a small power steering pump eg early magna and one of these hydraulic motors into a feather.

One other problem with hydraulics is they are awful efficiency wise, one of the reasons I like the abs unit , it runs on brake fluid, nice and low viscosity.

Post Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:40 am 
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DumHed
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yeah I think a fuel pump would work well with brake fluid too.

What cars are the hydraulic fan motors used on?
I've never seen one, but they sound interesting. I have all the rest of the bits Smile
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Post Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:08 am 
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