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Interchanging armour/weapons
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Rotwang
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Joined: 15 Jun 2004
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Location: Vic


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I can understand why Battlebots would have probably been less than enthusiastic about interchangeable weapons and armour. There seeding and ranking system of helping there stars past the first rounds and straight into the TV rounds etc. Confused

That is not applicable to us; I am sure the Kerro ranking can cope with that.
Smile
The Rotwang team have 2 bots that defiantly qualify, it would get very tricky writing a rule to allow normal repairs and tuning and drawing a line as to going too far.
It never occurred to me that it was a problem, The early pilot bots that I built were quickly built, The weapon motors were welded in and had to be cut off and a new one welded on, now I an taking more time and setting things up so things un bolt etc.
Its just progress, if something un bolts then something else can be bolted on. Smile

Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:37 am 
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Mel
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Location: Victoria


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So, its not ok for one driver to operate more than 1 bot during an event, but it is ok to change your motor(s),armour,wheel(s),batteries and weapon types throughout an event - so that what you started with may in fact be nothing like what you end with - but its classified as *one robot?
l think NOT. It's fudged logic through and through Confused

Anyway, modulate away boys! It's exactly like the woman who needs a suitcase full of clothes for a 1 night trip. Rolling Eyes Always good for a laugh!

And its always good to know:


quote:
If a bot changes armour or weapon type during an event - it's a blatant admission that it's not capable of winning the battle otherwise.


quote:
who is happy to win thru original design registration and talent -and those who need to modify because they can't.


l think Battlebots adopted the no change rule for the above two reasons more than anything else. T.V is an expensive medium with a critical audience. So they needed warriors who could battle as they stood and not cross dressers who need a larger wardrobe in the green room. Mr. Green


ok l'll shut up now - seeing as lm outnumbered in this debate. But remember: There's only two ways in which you can argue with a woman and neither of them work Wink
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Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:45 pm 
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DumHed
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race cars get set up differently for different tracks, tyres changed for weather conditions, etc.

In most sports there's a certain amount of tuning and tweaking going on for best results.
Personally, I'd like to see bots being more configurable as I think it poses interesting challenges for the builder and the opponent.

Really though I just like to see carnage, whether it's my own bot or others receiving it Smile
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Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:55 pm 
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Daniel
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
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Location: Gold Coast


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quote:
Originally posted by Rotwang:
That is not applicable to us; I am sure the Kerro ranking can cope with that.
Smile


I think more about the vibe of the robot. I mean when a robot is rebuilt between events it has to seem like the same robot. Fragmentor and Ball Peen seem like the same robot to me. But for some reason Cobra and King Cobra don't seem like the same robot.

I guess I think about it from the point of veiw of the little kiddy in the audiance. If you make a change between fights and the auidiance members still see it as being the same robot, even though you might have taken off the spinner and replaced it with a wedge like The New Project did, then it must still be the same robot. Thats because most of the robot is still there.

I guess thats why Robot Wars didn't allow interchangable armour, so the robots would always look the same to the audiance and would therefore still be thought of as the same robot.

Nothing to do with driving ability or not being good enough to beat another robot. Its just the vibe of the thing.

Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:05 pm 
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Mel
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quote:
race cars get set up differently for different tracks, tyres changed for weather conditions, etc


But they dont change the motor or shell and whack on a grill spike - mid race do they, because then it would not be the same car eh. Wink
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Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:13 pm 
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Nick
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Your analogy is stretched past breaking point, Mel. Any talk about why BattleBots didn't allow change is also besides the point - our rules are based on the RFL, which DOES allow changes up to a certain point. Brett looked it up and emailed me about it before Robowars. I don't recall the exact details, but the rules allow a certain percentage of major body parts to be exchanged and still have the bot identified as being the same.

The US guys make mid-competition changes all the time (mostly armour in place of weapons) and it seems perfectly acceptable over there, so I don't see why it's suddenly an issue here.


quote:
If a bot changes armour or weapon type during an event - it's a blatant admission that it's not capable of winning the battle otherwise.


So what? nobody's design is perfect for every occasion. It's hard to make a bot that stands up to Jolt AND has a powerful weapon at the same time, so it makes sense to be able to armour up against spinners and then power up against other bricks. If someone tries this approach, I know I will always be fighting the armoured version so there are no surprises for me.

How about this analogy: I promise not to make any changes to Jolt during the 3 day Brisbane event if you promise to wear the same outfit for 3 days! Laughing Laughing
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Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:29 pm 
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DumHed
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quote:
Originally posted by Team LeSheen:

quote:
race cars get set up differently for different tracks, tyres changed for weather conditions, etc


But they dont change the motor or shell and whack on a grill spike - mid race do they, because then it would not be the same car eh. Wink


We changed the engine in the race car on the last round last year, and back in the day they used to run a different engine for qualifying! (they only did 300km per $100k engine rebuild!)

Whole suspension setups are changed, gearboxes are swapped to change ratios for different tracks, aerodynamic parts (even body panels) are often swapped to optimise downforce vs wind resistance too.

All different types of bots turn up to events, so in my opinion there's no difference between having to fight a spinner bot, or a ram bot that just happens to have had some armour swapped for a spinner because my bot's weakly armoured Razz
If Kang suddenly got an overhead bar spinner instead of the saw I think I'd still be less worried than if I had to fight Jolt Smile
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Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:42 pm 
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Timothy Forde
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Joined: 16 Jun 2004
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Well this has sure becomeing interesting lol

Well before I start building need I final word at least for the event comeing up from the Event organizer when I discribed my changes in the post earler where they alright

Basicly I do not see changeing the lenth of a lifting arm a big deal as it
is still the same wepion

It more the armor going from total covered for wepions to exsposing the wheels as much as possible for wedge/clamp/flippers to keep moveing

Could just make it so I can move the armor on the bot around so I don't even need to change it lol just moveing it from one stop to another
But I would rather interchange as I think it would be faster to do and makes it easy to replace damage bettween fights

Any way need a final word on what I can get away with for this bot before I start building
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Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:47 pm 
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Nexus
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IN all fairness to Mel there is a point that this can become ridiculous.
I think it needs some restriction to keep it in line.

The only thing I can think of would be to limit the amount of change by a weight or percentage. Eg you would have to maintain at least 50 percent of the original bot, personaly I would make it even more, maybe 70 percent.
THat way component bots can be weighed by components seperate from the body.

Otherwise with enough changes done it can technically become another robot.
I support component weapons but can see how this can get out of hand without some restrictions.
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Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:13 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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Its a contentious issue, thats for sure.. Its good to hear everyones different opinions on it though..

It may seem a bit of a storm-in-a-teacup issue, given that no-one has actually pushed the limits of acceptability yet, but as long as a discussion stays friendly, I think they keep people thinking creatively.

Remember, *at present* there is no restriction that I know of on modular bots, or the amount of a bot that can be changed or replaced within a competition. Probably because it hasnt become a regular problem that I know of elsewhere.

It seems like its more of a "Tournament Rules and Proceedures" issue than something that would be found in the technical regulations however. This means it will likely be event-specific, rather than in the standard RFL-type ruleset. Does anyone know if another event's TRP rules that mentions this issue ?

I agree that its more of a "vibe" issue than something that can be easily put down on paper.. What makes a robot unique ? Each Robots defining characteristic can be wildly different. For some it might be their shape and speed, for others it might be the weapon type.

Like my safety rant, its something that is probably better being "unofficially" enforced at this time. If a builder is planning on bending what is considered "sportsmanlike" in order to gain a competitive advantage, by altering a robot beyond reasonable bounds whilst in a tournament, then they have probably missed the point of Robot Combat.

Its not *just* about the 3 minutes in the arena unless your sole aim is to win.. Doing something that gains you the admiration of your fellow competitors will always be more enjoyable than hitting below the belt to win a fight, except to a small anti-social few.

Unfortunately, its always the few that mess it up for the many, and thats why rules are written. I prefer community enforced fairness myself, but thats just me.. Many people much prefer to operate within a clearly defined set of rules.. (often so they can find loopholes Rolling Eyes)

So... *IF* we were looking for a clearly worded change the rules to limit the "alterability from as-registered" amount, How would you *word* this rule ?

Statements of position are no use when it comes time to draw an actual line in the sand - so be clear now..
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Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:04 pm 
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Philip
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In the interests of keeping an event moving, I would like a rule stating that all modifications must be able to be completed within 20 minutes including battery changes.
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Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:26 pm 
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Mel
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My analogies are there for a good reason Nick and as long as the topic is open for discussion, l'll use them. Twisted Evil

Any talk/chat/musings/ponderings or thoughts on offer, based on all other robot combat organisational rules are *always worthwhile (if only in brief) - this way, informed decisions can be made as to whats best. To state that the 'US boys are doin' it and theres no problem there' would have to be the weakest excuse for preserving it, that l have heard of yet. And OMG - l've heard it twice now Shocked

Our rules, are based ( got that ? ) on the RFL rules - that is to say that they are not set in stone, nor to the letter. Which is why this topic is herin open for discussion, so it's irrelevant who sent you what and or when, regarding them. They have not been discussed at great lengths at any point within this forum so far and it's about time they were. And so are.

But hey, thanks anyway Wink
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Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:54 pm 
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DumHed
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip Taylor:
In the interests of keeping an event moving, I would like a rule stating that all modifications must be able to be completed within 20 minutes including battery changes.


I don't think a time limit is necessary.
The only time related rule needs to be that the robot needs to be ready for whenever its next battle is, just like repairs.
That could be the next day, or in 20 seconds time.

Sometimes there would be a cause for modification, and sometimes (mostly?) there won't.

Modular weapons might even just be a simple way of continuing if something is damaged - eg, a high powered spinner might burn out a motor or break a gearbox, which might not be repairable in a reasonable time frame, so swapping for some extra armour and a wedge would be a good, simple way of keeping the bot in the game, even though it'll be somewhat handicapped compared to normal.
I don't think anyone would have a problem with that sort of thing.

As for being worried about having to fight a bit with a potentially random weapon choice I don't see that as being any different to the already random draw, where you can be fighting any type of robot.
It just adds one more level to the surprise Smile
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Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:04 pm 
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Nick
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I agree with that; we already have one time rule, let it cover everything for simplicity. If you are not ready for any reason - repairs, recharge, changes, whatever, then you may forfiet. To say a weapon is only allowed if it can be exchanged in a given period of time doesn't measure how greatly the bot has changed, just the number of bolts that have to be undone Smile .
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Post Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:07 pm 
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Big AL
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well we could go off the chassie of the bot, by defenition i belive any chassie is what most of the componants are bolted to any alteration (bar repairs, ie welding eta)to the chassie could be deemed ilegal and a forfit woill take place.

However someone brought up the consept of clones of chassies so when one gets damaged beyond repair they could simply swap parts from one bot to another.this idea was accepted to my knowlage. this would be similer to the argument as insted of spare bits someone had a ready made chassie to roll out in the last matches all strong and fresh vs a battle weaken bot.
but if some one had to keep a chassie thought out a comp and change parts to suit its conditons it would still be the same bot just with extra armor or more batterys.

mind you one way to fix it is have a lottery system. every team lines up, fixes there robot up, gets ready for battle and two numbers are drawn out of a hat to determan the next ones in right before a match starts should stop the bot vs bot setup and make it more even
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Post Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:21 am 
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