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Spockie-Tech
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quote:
Originally posted by seanet1310:
RE Computers:
Linux may have a large market share (most hidden from the general population with exception to Android.) Windows is still the largest the common user is familiar with and windows has a strong standing in some complex embedded systems.



Really, where ? I know it is used in a few places, but not to any significant amount that I know of, although you occasionally do see billboards and train scheduling systems and so on with BSOD's on them, so it must be out there somewhere. Smile


quote:
If Linux wishes to succeed on the main stream end user it has to do like Android does. Hide everything behind a GUI and make it super easy to do everything. Ubuntu has done some of this but I do not think it has gone far enough for the average lazy end user. Look at OSX, people like how you can hide everything and have basically one click installs.


Ah, the good old "Year of the the Linux Desktop" argument. favourite of geeks the world over for many years. Smile I personally do not consider "success" to be defined by "as used by mums and dads the world over". By that metric, the VolksWagon is the most "successful" car ever.

I said Microsoft has been defeated, because it was their goal to move their OS into the worlds dominant OS, and they have completely failed to do so on several fronts over and over again. Linux is probably the #1 reason for this happening. If it wasnt for Linux (or Gnu/Linux to throw a bone to RMS) and people deciding that working together to produce something we all needed for free was a cool idea, then WIndows (or a derivitive) would quite likely be on your cars dashboard, your phone, your television and so on as envisioned by MS.

But it is not purely numbers that define success in my opinion.. McDonalds is a "successful" burger retailer by the sheer volume game, but I dont think anyone would laud them for making an awesome burger that has benefitted the world.

A proper judging system should take into account innovation, reliability, cost, market share, adapatability and quite a few more parameters. By any multi-tiered judging system like that, the big commercial OS's would fail miserably. Its not just about the numbers of users.

And, yes Ubuntu does have a bigger market share of users than any other flavour of linus (AFAIK). But there are more screwdrivers and hammers out there than there are angle grinders and welders.. but no amount of screwdrivers will enable you to build a structure that requires welding, even although a large number of people find screwdrivers more useful than welders.

I see Linux as a collection of computer tools, or a *toolkit*. Its diversity is its strength.. you can use the "home handyman" toolkit that will let you email and surf the web and print and look at pictures or music/video. Or you can use the "engineers toolkit" that lets you build the digital equivalent of bridges, roads, aircraft or whatever.

To me, the "Flagship" toolkit is the one that includes the biggest range of powerful tools, not the one that is owned by the most people who just want to change lightbulbs at home.
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Post Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:54 pm 
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Valen
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by your argument ubuntu is the winner, its a superset of debian not a subset ;->
I use it for my servers, ubuntu server is much less crap than ubuntu desktop has become. debian ships without firmware, makes installs much more painful.
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Post Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:08 am 
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Knightrous
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IMO, Ubuntu has become the top distro purely on the fact that they are constantly pushing into new territory and expanding the horizon. While all the other distros are happy to just play in the shadows, Ubuntu is always pushing something new (fior better or worse). Several years ago we saw the Ubuntu Netbook Remix, which was a more compact, but still fully fledged Ubuntu that was designed to run on the tiny little 7" screen netbooks that had flooded the market, while supporting the low tier hardware within them. This was a great alternative to WinXP on these devices and with some tweaks was quite a bit better to use and operate, while this remix did eventually die out (along with most of the netbooks) it did kick off the basis for the Unity desktop (Not every ones favourite desktop) and has also allowed Ubuntu to start pushing into the mobile market.

Ubuntu was more about screwdrivers and hammers, in the beginning, but they have created there own desktop and now they have started working on their own X server replacement (that isn't Wayland), that's more grinder/welder work then most other distro's have done in the last 5 years.

With Canonical pushing Ubuntu into the mobile space now for phones, tablets and even TV's, soon you will be able to have a whole, open source environment across all your personal devices. This is like the Appleverse, but with you in control.
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Post Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:49 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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I admit that I havent used Ubuntu to any great amount, and my dislike for it based mainly on its choice of gnome for a UI.. which I dont like at all..

Also I dont recall the details now, but wasnt there something about the toolkit that Gnome is based on being under a fairly non-free licence ? Or is that old news ?

I had a go at Kubuntu a couple of times, and found it poorly made, with lots of "rough edges".. It was obvious that Canonical didnt want to support KDE and that was made obvious when they dropped support for it a little while later.

Which is the other thing I dont like about Ubuntu.. Being under the control of a commercially focussed dictator who makes the rules as he sees fit, regardless of how benevelont he may be (at the moment) didnt make me feel confident..

Mandrake/Mandriva which was my OS of choice for many years was run in a similair fashion (by a company) and it had quite a rocky history as the fortunes of the parent company underwent a heap of drama.

So, after considering it a lot, Ive presently settled on Mageia as supposedly one of the "best governed" distros available. Supported by a non profit org, with all decisions being taken in the open, the way an open source OS should be.

I also had a hard look at Mint, but decided against it, because again, its run by a one-man-show/dictator. What happens if he loses the plot or dissapears ?

Some Interesting fairly neutral distro reading here. Note that Megeia comes in 2nd.

http://www.tuxradar.com/content/best-linux-distro-2012
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Post Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:15 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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I admit that I havent used Ubuntu to any great amount, and my dislike for it based mainly on its choice of gnome for a UI.. which I dont like at all..

Also I dont recall the details now, but wasnt there something about the toolkit that Gnome is based on being under a fairly non-free licence ? Or is that old news ?

I had a go at Kubuntu a couple of times, and found it poorly made, with lots of "rough edges".. It was obvious that Canonical didnt want to support KDE and that was confirmed when they dropped support for it altogether a little while later.

Which is the other thing I dont like about Ubuntu.. Being under the control of a commercially focussed dictator who makes the rules as he sees fit, regardless of how benevelont he may be (at the moment) didnt make me feel confident..

Mandrake/Mandriva which was my OS of choice for many years was run in a similair fashion (by a company) and it had quite a rocky history as the fortunes of the parent company underwent a heap of drama.

So, after considering it a lot, Ive presently settled on Mageia as supposedly one of the "best governed" distros available. Supported by a non profit org, with all decisions being taken in the open, the way an open source OS should be.

I also had a hard look at Mint, but decided against it, because again, its run by a one-man-show/dictator. What happens if he loses the plot or dissapears ?

Some Interesting fairly neutral distro reading here. Note that Mageia comes in 2nd.

http://www.tuxradar.com/content/best-linux-distro-2012
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Post Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:16 pm 
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seanet1310



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quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:


I would argue that our current selection process does little to encourage such traits, instead preferentially selecting for media-friendly looks, well spoken, an ability to avoid making easily-misquotable sound bites, expensive clothes, and political astuteness over any sort of financial acumen or social responsibility.


While that plays a part particulate with the people who care less there are plenty who will vote for other reasons and take into account such things.
Anyway, as you know. You vote for your local member in Australia not the leader. As such you are highly unlikely to be voting for the media sound bit excessive clothing wearer. It is up to the individual elected members to chose a leader. That is why the claims that Gillard is an illegitamte government or she was not elected are bull shit and show peoples ignorance (encouraged by false claims from the Honourable Mr Abbott)

quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:

Bluntly put, most politicians are media friendly short sighted idiots, and probably average out at a lower median IQ than the much maligned "Average Aussie" would.


I call bull shit on this. The average politician is actually intelligent and highly educated these days. They say and do stupid things as they are human and due to the position of power anything you disagree with is likely to be seen as a stupid move. It also helps to pretend to relate to your target, the average stupid Australian who votes on silly things you pointed out above.
The leader and even the elected party can not know everything about everything. They should have a team of Subject Mater Experts around them in areas for advice and indeed many do but sometimes they pick bad ones.
They also take into account far wider issues then the general Australian sees or bothers to pay attention to. The everyone vote on issues system would not be able to handle this.


quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:

Not to mention the inherent inefficiencies in a system where its "workers" spend more time trying to secure and advance their position in the beauracracy than they do trying to ensure the system produces a useful amount of "work" as an output.


I think you are talking about public servants. As one, I again call bullshit on your perception of the APS. (Australian Public Service). A mass voting on every issue system like proposed here will require a far larger public service to implement the chaos then we have now.


quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:

Indeed, given the current gov pay structures, that reward bosses based on the size of their department in terms of resources managed, rather than efficient results, it seems obvious to me that gov employees have an incentive to do things as *inefficiently* as possible to require more people to get a job done and thus pad their own paypackets.



Again, Bullshit. I take offence as a government employee to this statement.
There is no incentive in the current economic climate to have as many people as possible working on something or to in any way miss manage resources as you claim.


quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:

So, with voter-friendly driven media whore leaders backed up by teams of the worst workers that can be found, I seriously doubt that even a mass-market democracy could possibly do worse than our present "leaders" manage to do.


Bullshit, see above. Yes the policies of the leaders are often as your first bit explains they are not the worst workers that can be found.


quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:

I do agree that a simple majority rules democracy has problems, and as has often been said, the best form of gov is a benevolent dictator, problem is they dont stay that way..


So true. Shame that does not work out well long term.

quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:

But Im sure that we could hardly fail given a team of people who can perform the "herding cats" task of coordinating a bunch of fractious programmers into producing something as complex as an operating system reasonably well.


So because you can make an OS you can make a government open source? Lets remember a very small fraction of the people who use the OS would contribute in any meaningful way to its future development. Result a collection of people leading others with little input from the others. Sound familiar?
Also, how many times has an open source team spit, joined, broken up, been bitter rivals etc? We can not run a government on philosophy. Open source is not the do all or solution to all. Closed source has done a lot, find me a highly powerful open source CPU or GPU that is comparative with high end power users of desktop PCs? You may have trouble, why? Because open source has issues in hardware, even when it exists it is typically built on blocks of closed source (such as the IBC, closed source micro, fets etc)


quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:

Whatever they come up with is extremely unlikely to be worse than what we presently have, which hasnt changed in operational methods in a thousand odd years.


It may go ok until a power group decides to do something like go to the poor and stupid with a proposal. 'We will give you $100 cash if you vote for legislation x'
As you would never get 50% of all eligible voters for most issues your idea must rely on just a 50% majority with minimum threashold. Most people will not vote against it if they don't see it impacting them so maybe you buy 5million votes ($500,000,000 investment) but legislation x may give them a $300mill tax cut every year.

Also, the second disaster or war broke out we would be screwed. These require fast response like I said last time from an executive.

Communications and its feeble nature are also a problem. Look at what happened in Bundy or Warrnambool recently. People lost for weeks phone both home and mobile, fax, internet. You lose all their voices with this system.
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Post Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:53 pm 
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seanet1310



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
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quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:


Really, where ? I know it is used in a few places, but not to any significant amount that I know of, although you occasionally do see billboards and train scheduling systems and so on with BSOD's on them, so it must be out there somewhere. Smile
Advanced and expensive test equipment? and other places. Plenty of other closed source systems control most of the automotive embedded systems and stand alone gps guidance as well.


quote:

Ah, the good old "Year of the the Linux Desktop" argument. favourite of geeks the world over for many years. Smile I personally do not consider "success" to be defined by "as used by mums and dads the world over". By that metric, the VolksWagon is the most "successful" car ever.


Then you should define your metrics better. You constantly claim how successful open source is and how bad closed is but in the end, bumbs on seats does count a lot.
Also, yes. They are. What is the point?


quote:
if it wasnt for Linux (or Gnu/Linux to throw a bone to RMS) and people deciding that working together to produce something we all needed for free was a cool idea, then WIndows (or a derivitive) would quite likely be on your cars dashboard, your phone, your television and so on as envisioned by MS.

You may be right. What is wrong with a company wanting to succeed as much as possible and have a large market share? Nothing. It is how we gain innovation and competition. IF everyone loved MS I doubt Linux would be as popular as it is now for developers and users.
MS tried to be everything for everyone. They still do as by the comparability design of Win8. This is what failed. You mentioned cars, most of this is not linux but things like qnx, a closed OS.
I would argue Apple has done more then Linux to defeat MS but that is a topic of debate.


quote:

But it is not purely numbers that define success in my opinion.. McDonalds is a "successful" burger retailer by the sheer volume game, but I dont think anyone would laud them for making an awesome burger that has benefitted the world.
awesome is not a quantitative term. I could make an awesome system that works on only one chip and sold to only 10 people. A success? no, awesome, could very well be.


quote:

A proper judging system should take into account innovation, reliability, cost, market share, adapatability and quite a few more parameters. By any multi-tiered judging system like that, the big commercial OS's would fail miserably. Its not just about the numbers of users.
I think it would be closer then you think.
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Post Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:04 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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Well, it seems that we disagree on many points of view. Smile

I dont have a problem with that.. to quote a retired veteran friend of mine (who I respect even although I dont particularly approve of people who go fight in other peoples countries).. "I dont agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

As long as someone takes the time to present their opinions in a rational polite fashion, I welcome disagreement, and I dont assume that all arguments need to conclude with one side changing positions to be considered good arguments...

As long as both have listened to the others point of view and tried to see things the others way, and *hopefully* managed to in some small way, then the exhange of opinions was worthwhile.

or as diplomats like say "Our leaders had a frank exchange of views:, which I always thought of as political doublespeak for "we agreed to disagree"
Smile

Do you want me to continue to present my mostly opposing points of view to your statements, or shall we agree to disagree ?
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Post Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:40 pm 
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seanet1310



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Agree to disagree works.

I have no problem with your having opinions that differ. Sorry if my post indicated differently.
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Post Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:15 pm 
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Knightrous
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China are on a role to drop Windows and western developed software in generally. Looks like Canonical has struck a deal with the Chinese government to work towards a China specific Ubuntu

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/goodbye-windows-china-to-create-home-grown-os-based-on-ubuntu/

If China really does this and run with it, it will certainly change market share of Linux in the desktop environment
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Post Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:49 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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I know China are portrayed as the new "Worlds Bad Guys" by the western power blocs (it must be hard having to come up with new bad guys all the time to keep the citizens paranoia going), but really, I dont blame them at all for this.

An verifiable, compile-it-yourself, open source code operating system, vs a closed source os from a monopolist convicted by their own countrys government for bad behaviour, with a track record of stomping on anyone who tries to befriend them.

Gee, I wonder which one will be better for our contry in the long term ?

What will be interesting is to see if the Chinese-gov approved OS will *remain* open source... I wonder if/how-many binary blobs will end up in the OS in the network stack or other areas ensuring that the user is trackable and not using "Golden Shield" (Great Firewall) bypassing ware or anything else the guvmint doesnt want them to.

Of course, open source relies on copyright to enforce its copy-left rules about derivitave works also remaining open source, and something suggests to me that the chinese gov isnt going to be overley concerned about adhering to any GPL requirements if its purely for internal China useage.

But, I suppose better a Linux based OS, than an MS based one. It should be at least partially open, and it may get better, so its a step in a positive direction, although I imagine the chairs will be flying at Redmond about now.. Smile
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Post Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:41 pm 
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Knightrous
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Norwegian military use Ubuntu
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/ubuntu-in-the-wild-unity-in-use-by-norwegian-military

"Open-source software is already used by military and security organisations because of its malleability. Unlike proprietary software, freely available code and platforms can be honed, developed on and analysed to fit a given purpose.

And those reasons become even more compelling for those tasked with combating (or, indeed, engaging in) cyber warfare."
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Post Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:59 pm 
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seanet1310



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Well if 42nd most powerful military (global fire power) and 27th biggest spender (wikipedia) in the world uses it then it must be the best solution.

I am sure there is a couple of other countries that use it but I bet there are plenty of countries far more powerful and have far bigger budgets who use closed source systems.

Could just be a cost saving measure. They do spend only 1.5% of GDP but have 24000 active personnel, 45000 reservists and all the civilian support they will need. All them Microsoft licences add up cost wise. (Norway GDP is $485.8billion. )

As a comparison Australia is 23rd for power, 14th for spending and spends around 1.9% of GDP with 59,000 active military and almost 22 thousand reserves. (Australian GDP, $1.37 trillion)


Always good to explore all options then just the bias of the news provider (note, I do not know they did not do it just for security. It is just plenty of larger, more powerful and more spending militaries don't seam to use open source)
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Post Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:37 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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Military spending is very likely to be far more influenced by "Political Correctness" and "Jobs for the boys" factors rather than a rational analysis of what is most efficient.

Most US Senators will do nearly anything to bring Megabuck Military Spending into their home state, and I seriously doubt that any US region wouldnt do their best to support their home grown US Government friendly companies like Apple and Microsoft.

You only have to look at the way the court cases between Samsung and Apple went around the world. The Majority of US Judges naturally sided with the home team and decided Samsung had been naughty and copied Apples precious and so-innovative "box with rounded corners" look, and that those evil Koreans had been getting a free ride off Apples "Innovations" (Never mind that Apple stole 90% of the ideas from someone else, thats not the point)

So, the possiblity of the USA Military adopting significant amounts of Open Source Software when it would immediately result in personal visits, lunches, lobbying and so on by the CEO's of some of the biggest companies in the US crying about how they should support the home team and keep the $$ flowing in their direction seems pretty unlikely to me.
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Post Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:27 am 
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seanet1310



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quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:
Military spending is very likely to be far more influenced by "Political Correctness" and "Jobs for the boys" factors rather than a rational analysis of what is most efficient.

Most US Senators will do nearly anything to bring Megabuck Military Spending into their home state, and I seriously doubt that any US region wouldnt do their best to support their home grown US Government friendly companies like Apple and Microsoft.


While that may be true about the US (United states are rated as B for Defence spending corruption http://government.defenceindex.org/results/overall) other countries have very robust systems for Defence spending far in excess of most private companies.

All your Samsung vs Apple I have ignored as it only addresses the US as if the US are the only country to use Microsoft as an operating system in the military.

Same with the rest of your post. There are are about 189 countries in the world depending on your sources and definitions. The USA is one of these so I do not see how the massive focus on the US Military is. Yes they are the biggest employer of people in the world and they are the biggest military spender by far but they and Norway are not the only militaries.

If anything based on your logic every country other then the US should be running non OSX or Windows operating systems in the military as that way they are backing their home team (or more home team as most will not build from scratch their own OS)
Does the evidence back up this extension of your argument? I think not.
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Post Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:05 pm 
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